Potential Black Paint M3 Outside of Known Numbers

[Hello]

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I have a black paint M3 headed my way. From the images I was shown before purchasing, the serial number was what stood out to me. I know that the general impression is that Leica made black paint M3's outside of the documented batches so I guess my question is, if the number was close to the numbers in the batchs, the odds of it being legit would go up. Or conversely the odds of it being doctored would go up too as a discerning vendor would be aware of that and be more obliged to have the camera painted.

The one I will soon have is numbered 1156467.

Based on the photos, the paint looks good but I'll know more once I have it and I'll definitely be posting images here to see where this may lead. I didn't pay an exorbitant amount for it so there's that as well. In fact, not much more than you would pay for a similar chrome version so the idea of it being a complex repaint seems off as well.

Overall, I'm sure any insight would be pure speculation as the list is the list and offers definitive guidance.

Regardless thanks for your time and any input is appreciated.

Looking forward to hearing from you all.

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[alan mcfall]

My thoughts are that it is a repaint. As you say, it is not in the established black M3 lists. Some of these lots are very small, such as 10 cameras; but I have recorded a lot of black M3's and none are near this one. Many of the original black cameras were used and show wear, only a handfull of original cameras were kept in perfect condition, so any super nice camera outside the normal factory lists must be a little suspect.

The quality of the repaint is likely dependent on who did it. Some repaints could be very close to original. I have seen some 25 likely repaints and there is considerable variation. I have a couple myself: 1056253 and 1103989, both well out of the listed originals. The factory might be of some assistance in determining originality. Also, in rare instances for customer satisfaction, a special may have been painted, or a chrome camera returned for painting. With Leitz, much is possible. A non-destructive chemical analysis of the paint in comparison with original might be interesting.

One note regarding the total number of originals produced.  Most historians quote a total near 3000, but i think they include a lot of 2000, 1044001-1046000,  for me this lot is questionable, all other black lots are 250 or less, very few cameras are seen from this lot and many more are recorded from the smaller lots. Unless someone has more data than me, I think the original Black M3 might be even more rare than thought.

 

[Hello]

40 minutes ago, alan mcfall said:

My thoughts are that it is a repaint. As you say, it is not in the established black M3 lists. Some of these lots are very small, such as 10 cameras; but I have recorded a lot of black M3's and none are near this one. Many of the original black cameras were used and show wear, only a handfull of original cameras were kept in perfect condition, so any super nice camera outside the normal factory lists must be a little suspect.

The quality of the repaint is likely dependent on who did it. Some repaints could be very close to original. I have seen some 25 likely repaints and there is considerable variation. I have a couple myself: 1056253 and 1103989, both well out of the listed originals. The factory might be of some assistance in determining originality. Also, in rare instances for customer satisfaction, a special may have been painted, or a chrome camera returned for painting. With Leitz, much is possible. A non-destructive chemical analysis of the paint in comparison with original might be interesting.

One note regarding the total number of originals produced.  Most historians quote a total near 3000, but i think they include a lot of 2000, 1044001-1046000,  for me this lot is questionable, all other black lots are 250 or less, very few cameras are seen from this lot and many more are recorded from the smaller lots. Unless someone has more data than me, I think the original Black M3 might be even more rare than thought.

 

Thanks very much for the response. I'm looking forward to getting it in hand to look it over. Regardless, the price paid if the repaint is good was probably worth it. Like I said, the price wasn't one to make me second guess if it was worth getting as it was in line with current chrome versions. It being a 1966 version helps too.

[Hello]

I now have it in hand and it is very intriguing.

The paint is worn in the sense that it's marked up with fine abrasions and scratches in the normal wear spots but not in the sense at full loss. There is some wear that shows there is brass underneath the paint in spots. The infill on the lettering looks good with some wear to it and age. Off white and not pure as i would expect a recent repaint to be. The vulcanite has patches of repair and doesn't look to be repainted. The original condition of it was described as the chrome lens mount ring being a bit off which results in less than stellar focus. The "L" seal looks to be intact as well. I purchased it for about $1200 which is very reasonable even for a repaint minus that damage described. 

The lack of button guard for the lens release is odd. The lack of detailed graphics on the interior lower film plate is odd.

Hopefully the pics help illuminate this a bit and maybe give some more insight into this.

I don't know. I don't want to get too excited for right now and a reality check would be welcomed but thought it was all very intriguing regardless.

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Edited August 6, 2019 by Hello

[Hello]

Oh yeah, also, the bottom plate release switch is black and not the chrome I would've expected either.

The person I purchased it from said they purchased it a couple years ago and it was already black and it was from Setadel which I guess confirms it's probably just a nice repaint unless they missed what they ahve which I can't imagine. Oh well.

Also, after some more detailed research, I guess the lack of button guard is common on the late M3's and the after lookign at so many LTM's recently I forgot that the bottom film insert graphic was less detailed on the M3, lol.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Hello

[Hello]

After doing some more research, I wouldn't be surprised if this is a Shintaro repaint. It just looks as good as you'd expectan aged factory paint in good condition to be.

[derleicaman]

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From what I can see in the pictures, I would say a nicely done repaint. Of course having the camera in hand would make it easier to judge. Tom A personally dealt with Shintaro and seeing some of Tom’s black cameras this one would be consistent with those. My biggest tell on your camera is the lettering is “too white” to be original. I would expect original filled letters to be more ivory in color. Also, the lack of a guard around the lens release button is another one. You can also remove the cover plate inside the camera with the film loading diagram on it. See if there is the serial number engraved on the chassis, and see if it matches the one on the top cover.

Recently Dan Tamarkin showed me an M3 he had in black chrome. Not original or a factory conversion. I have documentation from Leitz Wetzlar that they did not offer this service when I inquired back in the early 70’s.

[Hello]

50 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

From what I can see in the pictures, I would say a nicely done repaint. Of course having the camera in hand would make it easier to judge. Tom A personally dealt with Shintaro and seeing some of Tom’s black cameras this one would be consistent with those. My biggest tell on your camera is the lettering is “too white” to be original. I would expect original filled letters to be more ivory in color. Also, the lack of a guard around the lens release button is another one. You can also remove the cover plate inside the camera with the film loading diagram on it. See if there is the serial number engraved on the chassis, and see if it matches the one on the top cover.

Recently Dan Tamarkin showed me an M3 he had in black chrome. Not original or a factory conversion. I have documentation from Leitz Wetzlar that they did not offer this service when I inquired back in the early 70’s.

Yes it is very well done in many regards. All indications point to a repaint which is good to know. The L seal seems to be a poor fascimele so it’s nice to know it can be opened up as the mount needs some repair work. I will say the lettering as actually ivory in appearance it’s just not showing well in the images. It’s definitely a paint job with wear commensurate to some age.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Hello

[pico]

20 hours ago, Hello said:

I purchased it for about $1200

You stole it! If Setadel did  not say the paint was original, then it isn't. He is a straight shooter. Guarded lens release buttons show up sometimes, but I never found them really necessary.

Bottom line: Enjoy!

Edited August 7, 2019 by pico

[gyoung]

Guard on lens release button isn't on my 1158... camera nor on the other one from the same batch I used to own.  I think it's not on any of the late build cameras from new.

Gerry 

[Hello]

2 hours ago, gyoung said:

Guard on lens release button isn't on my 1158... camera nor on the other one from the same batch I used to own.  I think it's not on any of the late build cameras from new.

Gerry 

yeah, seems to be fairly normal for the end of productionb versions.

[jc_braconi]

20 hours ago, gyoung said:

Guard on lens release button isn't on my 1158... camera nor on the other one from the same batch I used to own.  I think it's not on any of the late build cameras from new.

Gerry 

My 1156xxx is already without

[Hello]

Just a short follow-up. I had a discussion with Youxin Ye about this camera and he’s fairly confident that this is a 90’s repaint done by Kanto, so while not s direct re-paint by Leica itself, that’s about as good as it gets with the quality their jobs have. So, I’m very happy about that.

[wattsy]

What about the lens mount being a bit off? This would concern me more than who did the paint job. Is this something that you are planning on having repaired?

Edited September 17, 2019 by wattsy

[Pecole]

After reading all that, I would add a point : when collecting and offered a reasonably used "black paint", my first check for authenticity was the appearance of brass (instead of chrome) in the "brassy" places. Incidentally, I looked to to photo archive of my Fontenelle collection, and saw na image of a black paint M3 with a black image counter (serial 917901). Did someone encounter such a peculiarity?

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[frame-it]

ive seen one M3 black paint with a black image counter..price was $24,000

[Hello]

3 hours ago, wattsy said:

What about the lens mount being a bit off? This would concern me more than who did the paint job. Is this something that you are planning on having repaired?

Youxin had a look at it and evaluated that the rangefinder arm needed adjustment first. The previous owner had brought it to a repair person not familiar with Leica so I guess that simple fix was the biggest issue with missed focus. So, I’m going to test it out with a roll of film to evaluate if focus is fine. If fine, then I’m not concerned but if it shows up as an issue then I’ll go from there. He said DAG would be the way to go as they have the equipment to test and fine tune mount placement. Youxin felt that the issue wasn’t pronounced enough to be an actual issue in performance but we’ll see.

[wlaidlaw]

I have no objection to folks repainting M3's or M4's. I myself bought a chrome M3 with a view to getting Alan Starkie to repaint it olive green, along with a spare thin 90 Tele-Elmar, that otherwise is unused (I have the better 90/2.8 Elmarit as a user). In the end, I decided the M3 was just too nice to repaint , so just got Alan to do a CLA. What I don't like is the folks, mainly in the far east, who repaint cameras and then artificially distress them with abrasive paper. That is just fakery. 

Wilson

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[pico]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

I have no objection to folks repainting M3's or M4's.

Your post reminds that I have concluded that my black M2 is a thoroughly refurbished, original black M2. The serial number is correct, but the paint is not what I remember as the deep luster black, but certainly not as dull as black chrome; the paint in the engraving is just too white (not ivory) and the covering is no longer vulcanite/ebonite.

Regarding Asian fakes, in many areas they are considered aspirational

 

[wlaidlaw]

21 hours ago, pico said:

Regarding Asian fakes, in many areas they are considered aspirational

 

You mean like a vacuum cleaner? 😛