sdai Posted July 30, 2007 Share #21 Posted July 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Of course, silly me for thinking it was more than a walk in the park. You've obviously never done it. You've obviously misunderstood me ... I meant apparently, there's no blind spot inside the M8, Black Fin, Spartan FPGA, PXA270C ... these can all be ordered online, the hardware is completely transparent and these vendors even offer you starter kits and training workshops if you need/like. Leica already showed you how they've put pieces together so you know it should work, and they use DNG, man - there's nothing beyond standard ... you really don't have to talk to Leica if you want to do it, you do need some embedded system engineers to reprogram the chips, and nothing prevents you from making it an open source project. You may think that I'm wasting your time but: 1. There's no chance Leica will open it up (IMHO) 2. Reverse engineering breaches the end user agreement ... If you want something different, then it's all on yourself. Don't get me wrong, I really think this project is way more interesting than the adapters, filters, old/new lenses stuff ... it deserves a dedicated web site and not only a thread on this board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2007 Posted July 30, 2007 Hi sdai, Take a look here Leica M8 Open Source?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
roberth Posted July 30, 2007 Share #22 Posted July 30, 2007 I'm a firmware and hardware engineer but I must say that the sun does not shine from my backside and I do not think that any good would come from me tampering with code that Leica spend many $$$ on. Regards from someone rooted in the world of reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aXs Posted July 30, 2007 Share #23 Posted July 30, 2007 ...new [M8]firmware... but wonder if Leica are missing a trick here... Leica doesn't have the time or resources to pursue... unless sponsored by someone with the will to do it independently... M8 functionality developed and refined beyond the standard Leica offering... Regarding the theme '...going beyond the standard Leica offering'... I already proposed a project 'Innovation inspired by Leica' - awards/events to encourage independent Leica-projects and specific M8-related s/w programs. Various PM messages supported the idea. In fact, Guy (guy_mancuso) said he would contact his personal friends at Leica Camera AG for official sponsorship... Look at the thread: 'Let's encourage Carsten... (carstenw) http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/28983-lets-all-encourage-carsten-making-new.html#post302901 Let's widen the scope of other Leica-events too Axel Axel Sanders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted July 30, 2007 Share #24 Posted July 30, 2007 Well, my 5c on this. Having at one point developed embedded code (and in fact for a predecessor of the Analog Devices DSP in the M8). It would be a very interesting idea, and has been done, e.g., on some LinkSys routers. But in this case, there are some considerable hurdles to overcome: 1. There are are three different processors in the M8, all of which have to work in sync. There are very programmers out there that understand real time code, especially across multiple processors 2. You would need the development systems for each processor 3. You would also need to understand the programmable logic device in the M8 in intimate detail. Effectively, its programmed as well. 4. Most of the development on systems like this get done on test rigs that provide connections to logic analyzers, etc that aid in debugging, not live cameras So, even if Leica open sourced the code, there would be a major learning curve for anybody involved, and even then given the lack of test rig, probably only minor tweaks would be possible, no wholesale rewrites.... Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 30, 2007 Share #25 Posted July 30, 2007 I wouldn't let any open source firmware near a camera of mine. Neither I, for me... but continue to think it would be a great idea... many people like Andy and me wouldn't like at all to upload some piece of firmware ( even if it comes from some of our friends hereby) ... but many other would be delighted to be able to have a camera you can interact with at software level... this is imho the fact that could be of interest for Leica Co... a new and broad set of potential customers. By the other side, I DO NOT think that the envisioned "community of M8 Sw developers" can have something to deal with Leica Co. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted July 30, 2007 Share #26 Posted July 30, 2007 Ian, doesn't it depend on what this community produces? I consider the likelihood of a reverse-engineered firmware to be near nil, but useful software for M8 photographers would be great. I guess so and my reaction to Mark's post probably sounds very negative. However, my feeling is that too much attention is placed on the M8 as if it is some kind of end in itself. For me, I'd rather focus my attentions on what I am photographing. The tools will only take you so far and trying to 'perfect' the M8 (improving image quality to the nth degree and/or adding features of minor functional significance) strikes me as approaching photography in the wrong way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 30, 2007 Share #27 Posted July 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think ideas likethis are great and personally support this kind of thinking. But here is the issue i see from a business standpoint. Leica does not make money from it, so firmware being leica owned may not want to release this part of there information. Now 3rd party software that makes the files and prw and post production better may get more support. Something like a better tethered program falls Into this area for example. What maybe something to look at is paid options from leica. Let's talk about lens selection option. Now some folks don't need this feature, like myself but many non coded folks would. Now if leica made this for all leica lenses that they ever built which let's face it there not going to support CV and Zeiss. Would folks buy THI option for Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 30, 2007 Share #28 Posted July 30, 2007 typing from my iPhone , sorry let me ask again If Leica offered this at say 200 dollars would folks buy it or some other function that is beyond normal operation. Say you had 10 standard options you could buy at a price to make it more your style. Sort of a La Carte idea but with firmware Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted July 30, 2007 Share #29 Posted July 30, 2007 I would certainly consider it. It would be better than nothing but I would prefer the open source route. I think things like menu additions/changes and other minor tweaks would not require the type of sophisticated test set-up or programming ability alluded to by other posters. Changing image characteristics, on the other hand, would. While I would like both, I would settle for the former. A true loss-less 16 bit compression scheme would be great to further improve the dynamic range and help capture the highlights as well as the shadows. I would like to see estimated f-stop added to the EXIF too. Better an estimated value than non value and for me to try and remember after 200 shots and a day later (I'm not a pro so I don't run around writing it down). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted July 30, 2007 Share #30 Posted July 30, 2007 This thinking line is grate but what if you take the DNG file that the M8 produces as the start or "RAW" material to work with? Isn't it maleable enough? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 30, 2007 Share #31 Posted July 30, 2007 Geronimo (weren't you also on FM?), that is my thinking too. I would like to develop a software library for manipulating M8 photos, rather than change the firmware. There are things I would like to see changed in the firmware, but I am not going to risk 'bricking' my M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2007 Share #32 Posted July 30, 2007 I would buy full 16-bits (more as a matter of principle- I do not think it would gain much), estimated f-stop, and scroll-wheel ISO changing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted July 30, 2007 Share #33 Posted July 30, 2007 I would buy full 16-bits (more as a matter of principle- I do not think it would gain much), estimated f-stop, and scroll-wheel ISO changing... I agree about esentials like this to start with (the more information to have the better) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted July 30, 2007 Share #34 Posted July 30, 2007 Carsten, yes I started in the FM forum but have now setteled with Leica and hope that the equipment used is more unconsius as time passes. (if this makes any sens) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs Posted July 30, 2007 Share #35 Posted July 30, 2007 I am with Carsten. I would love to have people work on already produced DNG than working on firmware. As far as firmware goes, even if there is one, I would still stick with Leica's. Like many said, Leica would not open the source code for firmware. It is part of their image quality control knob. They would not want anybody into their system where they don't have direct control. On the other hand, robably all of us jump into alternative DNG converter for Leica files. -tanka Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share #36 Posted July 30, 2007 In truth, it is a non-starter for the M8 because this sort of openness cannot be retro-fitted into the closed design, quite apart from any NIH tendencies at Solms. As Sandy suggests, making even apparently simple changes will be done on complex and expensive test beds and any of us who have done work on inter-processor communications will confirm how complex things can get when they stop talking. Easy if it always happens, but how about once every 1000 hours of operation? I also understand Ian's viewpoint that it's important not to lose sight of the purpose of the camera. That said, if you're a DNG-only user, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a plug-in to remove all those menu items which are no longer relevant to you? Or another one to do what Guy suggested - put all the rarely used menu items out of the way in a "Setup" menu. Or Sean's ideas for changing ISO and EV +/- on the fly using the arrow buttons? And that's before you provide the options to optimise image quality in the camera before the 14 to 8 bit conversion. And so it goes on. Lots of ideas here which may never see the light of day but which could push the envelope of usability and image quality if implemented. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2007 Share #37 Posted July 30, 2007 It would be rather unique for a user to be able to adapt the camera to his taste with a-la-carte firmware. Might be profitable to Leica too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neelin Posted July 30, 2007 Share #38 Posted July 30, 2007 It would be rather unique for a user to be able to adapt the camera to his taste with a-la-carte firmware. Might be profitable to Leica too. Interesting. A simple version of "hacking" the firmware was done for the Canon 300D to do useful things like changing what the buttons do on the back of the camera, and setting the minimum shutterspeed that will be selected while the flash is working, etc. http://satinfo.narod.ru/en/index.html there are some links to useful information Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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