Hi everyone I need your opinions on my newly purchased M4P

[Zhe]

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Hi everyone, I'm a new member here.

A week ago I received my M4P from a german seller on ebay. The rangefinder seem suffers from a delamination/separation, and the seller claimed it was not like that before. I downloaded the seller's 'product image' and zoom in/ lift up the explosure, here's what I found:
( the 'you' here refers to the seller)

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Basicly, there's an orange region on the inner prism elements of viewfinder, which indicates a separation/de-silver ongoing( correct me if I'm wrong). The overall region takes up about 1/4-1/3 of the whole viewfinder, when looks from the front side.

I've already give a positive feedback, which is silly, as I didn't find this issue at the first place. The seller claimed in his description that the camera is in 'good condition' and a term of 'by bidding you agree on no return'

Although I've held this M4P for a week, I merely played with it as I'm busy with my schoolwork, and I have other cameras with film loaded in. I think this damage cannot be developed within such short time, and the seller might try to hide something. Do you think I wronged the seller? 

I got this m4P for £700, together with a not very accurate but working MR4( I can calibrate it). The prism can be rebuild here(UK) and the overall cost is still acceptable. What would you do considering its price?

Edited June 24, 2019 by Zhe

[wattsy]

£700 seems reasonable and I think it would be better to spend a few quid having the prism resilvered (or whatever is necessary) than engaging in a potential spat with an eBay seller and paying to return the camera, etc. 

[MarkP]

Did you pay by PayPal?.  It works strongly in the buyer’s favour.  

If the camera is not in good condition (and I would not consider delamination to be good condition), you want to return it, and  the buyer is not receptive, then open a dispute.

It is crap for the vendor to claim that this problem occurred whilst the camera was in your hands for a few days.  That is disingenuous.

 

However, as Ian suggested, you may want  to get it repaired if the cost is reasonsble but it may we’l also need a CLA.

Edited June 25, 2019 by MarkP

[earleygallery]

Whatever the buyer says, if the camera isn't as described then you have a right to return it, but do it via the ebay and/or paypal dispute process. 

However as Ian said, the price paid is reasonable. If it isn't affecting the use of the camera, and the shutter is working OK then I think I'd hang onto it, use it and send it for repair/CLA when it needs it, as the next one you buy might have issues too. 

For comparison, Leica shop have an M4P for 1300euros and that has a 'hazy finder'. 

[Ventus]

It is worth it to get it fix. That model is real workhorse. The camera gets over looked because it was not made in Germany but trust me it will last you a long time after CLA. I have had mine since 1984 after I graduated from university. It has been with me all over the world and not worrying about battery issues. Enjoy it!!!

[plaidshirts]

22 hours ago, Zhe said:

Hi everyone, I'm a new member here.

A week ago I received my M4P from a german seller on ebay. The rangefinder seem suffers from a delamination/separation, and the seller claimed it was not like that before. I downloaded the seller's 'product image' and zoom in/ lift up the explosure, here's what I found:
( the 'you' here refers to the seller)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Basicly, there's an orange region on the inner prism elements of viewfinder, which indicates a separation/de-silver ongoing( correct me if I'm wrong). The overall region takes up about 1/4-1/3 of the whole viewfinder, when looks from the front side.

I've already give a positive feedback, which is silly, as I didn't find this issue at the first place. The seller claimed in his description that the camera is in 'good condition' and a term of 'by bidding you agree on no return'

Although I've held this M4P for a week, I merely played with it as I'm busy with my schoolwork, and I have other cameras with film loaded in. I think this damage cannot be developed within such short time, and the seller might try to hide something. Do you think I wronged the seller? 

I got this m4P for £700, together with a not very accurate but working MR4( I can calibrate it). The prism can be rebuild here(UK) and the overall cost is still acceptable. What would you do considering its price?

Like others have said, if you like the camera and find the price reasonable, keep it after a full CLA. I once bought a a user M4 that had more damage than advertised and negotiated a partial refund and used it to get a CLA and repair. It worked out at the end but took considerable time.

However, if you don't feel good about it, you can always open a dispute through eBay/PayPal and get your money back. The "no return" policy the seller stated only applies to buyer's remorse, not for items that differ from the original description/condition.

Either way, good luck.

[FrozenInTime]

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The zoomed in view of the viewfinder on the left looks like the image has been deliberately manipulated - to grey out the delamination.

That seems like evidence of fraud.

[earleygallery]

8 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

The zoomed in view of the viewfinder on the left looks like the image has been deliberately manipulated - to grey out the delamination.

That seems like evidence of fraud.

Good spot! T

Yes, clearly blotted out the area with a black 'pen'. So the OP is dealing with a dishonest seller - he may have more problems if he returns the camera, claims it didn't arrive or has other damage etc. Not nice knowing you've been conned like that but keeping the camera may still be the better option. After a CLA  and finder repair it will be good for the next 50 years and better than most other examples for sale. 

[earleygallery]

Just to add, I would still make a complaint, sending those images as proof  - point out the photoshopping work to them too. 

Sometimes ebay/paypal will refund without the goods having been returned - it would be nice to cause that seller some hassle yourself. Take your time responding when ebay ask you to confirm that you haven't returned the camera!

[Zhe]

Thank you for your advice, I'm still waiting for the reply from seller, he seems very unwilling to communicate. I suggest a partial refund, otherwise I'll return it. 

[Zhe]

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

Good spot! T

Yes, clearly blotted out the area with a black 'pen'. So the OP is dealing with a dishonest seller - he may have more problems if he returns the camera, claims it didn't arrive or has other damage etc. Not nice knowing you've been conned like that but keeping the camera may still be the better option. After a CLA  and finder repair it will be good for the next 50 years and better than most other examples for sale. 

Thanks, I'm worried about this issue( he may claim the returned camera is damaged), he also cover up a tiny dent with the camera strap in his photo...

[abrewer]

I presume that you also are new to Leica, too, from your opening comment.

Unfortunately, you are just exactly the kind of buyer a dishonest seller is looking for. You can't see the items first-hand before you buy it, he has excluded any return from you, and has likely played some games with the sales images to hide something he knows full well exists and is unsatisfactory.

As mentioned, if you bought through eBay/PayPal you are in luck. Simply follow the return instructions and PayPal can actually take the money back (even if the seller has already deposited it into his account) and refund you. 

The other route is to accept the prism separation (and whatever else may be defective) and pay to have it fixed. 

My suggestion is take the camera to a Leica shop, now or tomorrow or soon as possible. Let them evaluate it for damage or wear, and get a price to repair--then make the decision about which route (return or repair) is most economically sensible.

And . . . 

DON"T BUY OFF E-BAY SIGHT UNSEEN!!!

At this point in your Leica experience go to a good, honest dealer and let him guide you away from the junk and toward usable, value-oriented Leica cameras and lenses.

Good luck with it friend.

[AndreasG]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb abrewer:

My suggestion is take the camera to a Leica shop, now or tomorrow or soon as possible. Let them evaluate it for damage or wear, and get a price to repair--then make the decision about which route (return or repair) is most economically sensible.

Good advice, additionally, load a film and make shots at various shutter speeds, this gives you some feedback about the general mechanical condition. Usually, M4-Ps are reliable, I got mine 1986 (already preowned then), it still works well, only a little haze in the VF.

[plaidshirts]

10 hours ago, abrewer said:

DON"T BUY OFF E-BAY SIGHT UNSEEN!!!

While I had that one annoying M4 experience (the seller was honorable though and made up for it in the end) I've bought several bodies and lenses that were great values on eBay with zero issues.

The key is to do your research, not only of the listed item, but of the seller. Prompt responses to questions and, of course, a stellar feedback rating is a must.

Since there is so much buyer protection in place (eBay, PP, CC, etc) there really is no risk other than a bit of investment of time and effort.

 

[M9reno]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:38 PM, Zhe said:

Hi everyone, I'm a new member here.

A week ago I received my M4P from a german seller on ebay. The rangefinder seem suffers from a delamination/separation, and the seller claimed it was not like that before. I downloaded the seller's 'product image' and zoom in/ lift up the explosure, here's what I found:
( the 'you' here refers to the seller)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I've already give a positive feedback, which is silly, as I didn't find this issue at the first place. The seller claimed in his description that the camera is in 'good condition' and a term of 'by bidding you agree on no return'

Although I've held this M4P for a week, I merely played with it as I'm busy with my schoolwork, and I have other cameras with film loaded in. I think this damage cannot be developed within such short time, and the seller might try to hide something. Do you think I wronged the seller? 

Having given positive feedback does not invalidate your buyer protection rights on ebay or PayPal.

For that matter, the words 'by bidding you agree on no return' also do not invalidate your rights, if the item has been misdescribed.

Don't worry about having waited for a week - ebay and PayPal, not to mention consumer protection laws in most countries, extend the acceptable approval period for much longer than that.