SL to Pana S1?

[thighslapper]

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2 hours ago, MarkP said:

'Death by a thousand buttons' 😁
One of the main attractions of Leica for me has been simplicity of user interface as in the days of film cameras.
You've just killed my interest in the Panasonic S1R for good.

Horses for courses. 

Entirely depends on whether you prefer your main menu options available as a manually activated external control or hidden away in a menu. 

Despite my rather tongue in cheek listing of the extent of these, I don't think you would find them an obstacle to using what is essentially a very fine and well thought out camera. 

[frame-it]

5 hours ago, MarkP said:

'Death by a thousand buttons' 😁
One of the main attractions of Leica for me has been simplicity of user interface as in the days of film cameras.
You've just killed my interest in the Panasonic S1R for good.

I think the SL has 13 buttons [including the on-off switch]

Edited May 4, 2019 by frame-it

[tom0511]

My own feeling is that the S1r is also good to use. Some buttons make access to certain functions faster. But it takes some time to set up every thing. This has not only to do with more buttons but also with more functions available (some usefull and some I really dont care about) 

The SL interface is very clean and easy and fast to understand.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

12 hours ago, MarkP said:

'Death by a thousand buttons' 😁
One of the main attractions of Leica for me has been simplicity of user interface as in the days of film cameras.
You've just killed my interest in the Panasonic S1R for good.

I agree with the simplicity. 

Compared to other many buttoned cameras it's not too bad though. They're a good size and *mostly* well placed (they could swap the trash button I don't need to reach with the play button I want to reach). They did some smart things. All the buttons are in groups. So the buttons for the focus system are placed together rather than separated. Makes it much easier to find stuff. Someone mentioned AF with the joystick. You can do that on the S1R (push joystick for AF). However I have that centre push set to re-centre the focus point. The AF button is in the perfect spot.

The touch functionality is vastly superior on the S1R. You can do almost anything, including menus with the touchscreen. Pinch and zoom is less responsive but everything else is better. As is the tilty flippy screen.

I'd like a few less buttons.

Gordon

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I agree with the simplicity. 

Compared to other many buttoned cameras it's not too bad though. They're a good size and *mostly* well placed (they could swap the trash button I don't need to reach with the play button I want to reach). They did some smart things. All the buttons are in groups. So the buttons for the focus system are placed together rather than separated. Makes it much easier to find stuff. Someone mentioned AF with the joystick. You can do that on the S1R (push joystick for AF). However I have that centre push set to re-centre the focus point. The AF button is in the perfect spot.

The touch functionality is vastly superior on the S1R. You can do almost anything, including menus with the touchscreen. Pinch and zoom is less responsive but everything else is better. As is the tilty flippy screen.

I'd like a few less buttons.

Gordon

Gordon, how would you compare the EVFs, for viewing and for display functionality?

Jeff

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Gordon, how would you compare the EVFs, for viewing and for display functionality?

Jeff

Compared to the SL? They're both great. I don't notice a huge difference. Compared to everything else. Much better. However the Panasonic is hugely adjustable. Some have complained they can't adjust the SL EVF. The Panasonic has full adjustability. I never had any issues with the SL viewfinder but others did. Also on the Panasonic eye glass wearers have an eye relief function that shrinks the whole EVF display a bit.

So if you needed/wanted more customisation than the SL offered the S1R EVF is better. If not they're close enough for it not to matter although you can see a slight improvement if you really look for it.

I will note that the standard jpeg profile looked very very hot out of the box. The EVF was much hotter than the final image, which was also a bit too much for my tastes. I turned the EVF saturation down and changed the jpeg colour profile to natural. The natural profile is lovely.

Also worth noting that the very helpful Panasonic Australia rep I spoke to yesterday mentioned that the EVF is a big reason the battery needs to be huge. It draws a lot of power, apparently. I'd rather have that than a lesser EVF though.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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11 hours ago, frame-it said:

I think the SL has 13 buttons [including the on-off switch]

Well the S1R has 30 dials, buttons, wheels and switches, excluding the shutter button, mode selector lock button and lens release, by my count. This includes the 4 way controller as 4 buttons plus a wheel plus a centre button.

So many buttons, so little time....

Gordon

[budjames]

In addition to Leica M10, I also own a current Fuji XT3 and XH1. I switched to Fuji from Canon about 4 years ago. I love the smaller form factor and lighter weight as compared to the pro Canon DSLRs that I used previously.

Other than aperture priority, I have yet to use any of the advanced features on any of the Fuji cameras I have owned or now own. The one notable exception is using IBIS on the XH1. Even with my last Canon DSLR, the 5D MarkIII, I rarely used any of the advanced functions. When I purchased my first Leica, the M10, in Nov. 2017, I have hardly used my Fuji gear except for when I need long zooms. The simplified shooting experience of the M10 suits my shooting style and philosophy.

I have played with the SL in the Leica store and I found it huge and heavy, even though I liked it and it is build like a tank. I also loved the EVF.

I do a lot of travel photography and smaller form factor and compact primes lenses are important to me. I will take a look at the SL2 when it arrives in stores, but I'm happy with my current gear.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

Edited May 5, 2019 by budjames

[wjdrijfhout]

On 4/30/2019 at 10:51 PM, thighslapper said:

. Having tried it on an off on the S1R I can see Leica's logic in leaving it as mandatory, even though it's annoying not having the choice. 

How can it be logic if it’s annoying? Even Leica staff is unable to give a single argument why it can’t be just an on/off switch. It’s like putting a manual focus option on a autofocus lens. Most of the time you won’t need it, but under some circumstances it’s nice to have the option. 

Next to IBIS my second biggest hope for the SL2 (or SL firmware upgrade): LENR on/off option.

[thighslapper]

3 hours ago, wjdrijfhout said:

How can it be logic if it’s annoying? Even Leica staff is unable to give a single argument why it can’t be just an on/off switch. It’s like putting a manual focus option on a autofocus lens. Most of the time you won’t need it, but under some circumstances it’s nice to have the option. 

Next to IBIS my second biggest hope for the SL2 (or SL firmware upgrade): LENR on/off option.

My view on LENR from experience with the S1R is that most of the time you will need it ...... but there will be a few occasions where you may want to sacrifice it because of time constraints ..... such as multi-minute exposures at a rapidly changing sunset etc. Unfortunately you are then taking a gamble ..... several probably noisy images that may be difficult to clean up or one very good image. If you don't have to raise shadows you may be ok ..... but if you are exposing for highlights you probably will have to. Arguing that you can always bracket just adds more exposures and  time .... you might as well have taken a single image with LENR on.

Unless you have access to a several minute exposure from the SL with LENR off you will never know if Leica have been pragmatic and sensible or hopelessly conservative in their judgement. I can see them having the same arguments that I have put forward above .... and as they value image quality above all else I am doubtful that Leica will change the habits of a lifetime ......unless they have some super clean sensor where the long exposure noise levels are negligible. Same with IBIS ..... if Leica can't implement it well, and without form factor or other compromises, they won't do it. 

It may just be about protecting brand quality and reputation, but that's what keeps Leica alive, like it or not. 

 

[wjdrijfhout]

3 hours ago, thighslapper said:

My view on LENR from experience with the S1R is that most of the time you will need it ...... but there will be a few occasions where you may want to sacrifice it because of time constraints ..... such as multi-minute exposures at a rapidly changing sunset etc. Unfortunately you are then taking a gamble ..... several probably noisy images that may be difficult to clean up or one very good image. If you don't have to raise shadows you may be ok ..... but if you are exposing for highlights you probably will have to. Arguing that you can always bracket just adds more exposures and  time .... you might as well have taken a single image with LENR on.

Unless you have access to a several minute exposure from the SL with LENR off you will never know if Leica have been pragmatic and sensible or hopelessly conservative in their judgement. I can see them having the same arguments that I have put forward above .... and as they value image quality above all else I am doubtful that Leica will change the habits of a lifetime ......unless they have some super clean sensor where the long exposure noise levels are negligible. Same with IBIS ..... if Leica can't implement it well, and without form factor or other compromises, they won't do it. 

It may just be about protecting brand quality and reputation, but that's what keeps Leica alive, like it or not. 

 

For the most part I agree with you and I think everybody who asks for the on/off option realizes that it is more on than off. But there are very reasonable and logic situations where it should be off. Astrophotography is one of the things I do, and the SL is mostly useless for that. Only for this one little thing...

The argument that with LENR off the resulting files would not be on par with Leica quality is difficult to hold. The ISO-settings on my SL go to 50000, but the resulting photos are not even close to Leica-quality. So we never use it, unless there is the very rare occasion someone needs it, and then it's there. 

Leica's sensor in the SL is fantastic, and it's hard to believe that if you turn LENR off, performance would be significantly worse than all other sensors in the industry.

I love Leica's brand and reputation and most of all their products. My TL2, M240 and SL all are fantastic camera's to shoot with and the glass is even better. And I'm sure the SL2 will be worthy of this reputation every single bit. The fact that Leica does not want to compromise, and makes hard choices based on ultimate quality is why I think it's the best camera company in the world. But on this one, there is no such thing as a compromise. It's a missing feature, ... and for no reason. 

[thighslapper]

1 hour ago, wjdrijfhout said:

But on this one, there is no such thing as a compromise. It's a missing feature, ... and for no reason. 

95% of the world would agree with you ...... but most of the rest appear to be in Wetzlar. 

Any mention of LENR results in stoney silence from Leica. Perhaps they will finally wilt under the combined assault of user demand and the S1R/S1 this time round ..... 

[wjdrijfhout]

58 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

Any mention of LENR results in stoney silence from Leica. Perhaps they will finally wilt under the combined assault of user demand and the S1R/S1 this time round ..... 

Sounds like a great thing to hope for! 👍

[saxo]

Am 8.5.2019 um 19:31 schrieb wjdrijfhout:

For the most part I agree with you and I think everybody who asks for the on/off option realizes that it is more on than off. But there are very reasonable and logic situations where it should be off. Astrophotography is one of the things I do, and the SL is mostly useless for that. Only for this one little thing...

The argument that with LENR off the resulting files would not be on par with Leica quality is difficult to hold.

I wait for a simple menu point: LENR off/on since firmware 1.0 .....in vain. I don't think the SL will ever get this feature, maybe the SL2... so this feature will cost me some 1000 EUR..

When I purchased the SL, a professional gear(!), I didn't even expect that LENR can't be switched off. I realized that later, but I thought this feature will come with the next version of the firmware...