Too Much Noise or Is It Me?

[relms]

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I have been noticing that images I am taking with the Lumix S1R exhibit a great deal of noise - much more than I have experienced with the SL.  Is it because of the larger sensor?  Does this seem normal, and is this amount of noise acceptable at ISO 2000?   Here is an example (and I have many others):

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Summicron-SL 90, f11, 1/100,  ISO 2000

[relms]

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[grahamhoey]

The attached was taken at ISO 6400 with S1R. I was looking for so e SL images at the same ISO but couldn’t find any that I have with me but file seems cleaner than I remember the SL files. 

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[frame-it]

SL's noise above ISO 1600 is clearly noticeable , ISO 2000 at f11...no wonder

Edited April 24, 2019 by frame-it

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, relms said:

Is it because of the larger sensor? 

Same size sensor.  More MP.

Jeff

[ron777]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

SL's noise above ISO 1600 is clearly noticeable , ISO 2000 at f11...no wonder

Apples to apples.

Check out Steve Huff's comparison of high ISO images done with both the S1(24MP) and the SL.  He claims that the S1 "slays" the SL:

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/06/the-panasonic-s1-vs-leica-sl-high-iso-test/

That said, I own the S1R and have taken many images in the ISO 6400 range and while there is some visible film like noise at 6400, it is clearly not objectionable. Not sure why a lower ISO gain of 1600 should be causing issues that I have not personally experienced.

Edited April 24, 2019 by ron777

[ron777]

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Same size sensor.  More MP.

Jeff

C'mon Jeff, give him a break, he knows that.  People commonly use the word size in this context to mean pixel depth.

[thighslapper]

Noise seems very much dependent on subject matter and exposure ....... I shot all day with my M240 and a Noctilux at ISO 3200 by accident and didn't notice anything wrong till I tried to process the images and couldn't work out why the didn't look 'right' ..... the noise was hardly noticeable but the loss of DR made the images look flat. 

The noise in the ISO 2000 pic looks ok to me ..... and certainly better than I would have expected from the SL.

I've also found that the default settings in LR aggravate things. I'm using RW2 converted to DNG and the default sharpening is set to 40 and detail to 25. The latter adds some granularity and unless reduced to almost zero adds a very noticeable granular texture to images if sharpening is increased. In fact the whole behaviour of the Sharpening panel is very different to that when SL images are processed which I find fairly inexplicable....

ps. ..... I've always sharpened images to extract maximum detail without introducing artefacts or other issues ...... with SL DNG's I tend to use very high sharpening settings (90-100) but correspondingly high masking settings so much of the image is untouched. This doesn't work well with S1R RAW's ....... I've found the best solution is highish sharpening, a lowish detail setting and some luminosity noise reduction to iron out the resulting granularity. Also, unlike SL images, one standard setting seems to work for all images for lowish ISO's. All very odd. 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by thighslapper

[Chaemono]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb relms:

I have been noticing that images I am taking with the Lumix S1R exhibit a great deal of noise - much more than I have experienced with the SL.  Is it because of the larger sensor?  Here is an example (and I have many others):

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Summicron-SL 90, f11, 1/100,  ISO 2000

+1. Thank you. It’s you, Steve Huff in his Q2 review, and to some extend Dan on the Q board here who are willing to talk about it. The latter two, of course, about the Q2 but the sensor specs are virtually the same as the S1R’s. You are looking at ‘natural’ noise of tiny little pixels connected with equally tiny little wires on the front that the light needs to pass before it reaches these photodiodes. And the reason there so much of it even at ISO 2000 is one, ISO 2000 on the Panasonic bodies is like ISO 4000 on the SL because the EV is about -1 to the SL, and two, Panasonic decided to use sensors that aren’t flipped around to be illuminated from the back. It’s sort of a ‘value’ (read cheapo) solution and allows Panasonic to price these FF bodies really competitively. On the other hand, it offers Leica a chance to blow these sensors away with the SL2. It remains to be seen whether they will. 

[relms]

Thank you all for your comments.  ISO noise is indeed prevalent with the S1R to a degree beyond what I am accustomed to seeing with other cameras, and perhaps it is attributable to the higher resolution sensor.  In this video, wedding photographer/videographer Adam Grumbo tests both the S1 and S1R.  It is a short 3:31 video worth spending the 3 1/2 minutes to watch.  Grumbo finds quite a lot to like about both cameras, but noise is not one of them in the S1R. 

 

[pico]

You posted a 100% (1:1 pixel) close-up section. How large would a print be to see that noise, and from what viewing distance? The point should be clear: you will not likely see the noise in a print.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by pico

[relms]

34 minutes ago, pico said:

You posted a 100% (1:1 pixel) close-up section. How large would a print be to see that noise, and from what viewing distance? The point should be clear: you will not likely see the noise in a print.

 

Point well taken, but I see plenty of noise at less than 1:1 on my computer screen, which is where I view 99% of my photos as opposed to 1% in print.  I really do want to like this camera, and I do, except for the ISO and pattern noise.  This is a common gripe with quite a few others who have reviewed, as opposed to previewed, this camera.   

[ron777]

Can you supply links to these noise claiming reviews? I have searched the net but have yet to encounter same.  Furthermore, i’m not observing the level of noise you’ve described on my calibrated monitor with Capture Pro 12.3?

The below review  is all I could find

https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/compacts/panasonic-lumix-s1r/8

Edited April 26, 2019 by ron777
W

[Jeff S]

What ISO was used in the above video? He said it was the same ISO on both cameras, but I didn’t hear the figure.

Jeff

[tom0511]

Without knowing technical details, i think it is kind of expected that a 50MP sensor will show more noise than the same generation 24MP sensor.

I think one important thing to keep noise low is to really try to do a correct exposure in the first step. Also IBIS and IS help to keep ISO low.

If I wanted a body for low light and sports I would certainly rather buy the S1.

I sometimes wonder why high ISO IQ is discussed so often, sometimes one thinks people shoot more at ISO over 1600 than ISO under 1600.

But yes, I have had cameras which show less noise at higher ISO than the S1r.

[jankap]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

What ISO was used in the above video? He said it was the same ISO on both cameras, but I didn’t hear the figure.

Jeff

Marketing is everything. Diesel cars are clean, said VW......

[helged]

22 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Without knowing technical details, i think it is kind of expected that a 50MP sensor will show more noise than the same generation 24MP sensor.

I think one important thing to keep noise low is to really try to do a correct exposure in the first step. Also IBIS and IS help to keep ISO low.

If I wanted a body for low light and sports I would certainly rather buy the S1.

I sometimes wonder why high ISO IQ is discussed so often, sometimes one thinks people shoot more at ISO over 1600 than ISO under 1600.

But yes, I have had cameras which show less noise at higher ISO than the S1r.

+1. As an illustration, the Nikon flagship-body D5 has 'only' 20.8 mp and the follow-up body D6 is rumoured to have 'only' 24 mp (https://nikonrumors.com/2019/04/22/rumors-nikon-d6-to-have-a-built-in-sensor-stabilization.aspx/). The 'low' mp-count gives 'good' high-ISO characteristics (this one is taken in near darkness at ISO 100.000: https://helged.zenfolio.com/p265732443/h979a905f#h979a905f) plus, of course, much less data to process, implying quicker af, higher max fps and a larger buffer. It's hard to put everything into one body, so typically one ends up with one body for good light and one for less light (or one body for more static photography and one for more action). For me, it looks like Panasonic has made a good compromise with their S1 and S1R bodies.

Edited April 26, 2019 by helged

[thighslapper]

6 hours ago, relms said:

Thank you all for your comments.  ISO noise is indeed prevalent with the S1R to a degree beyond what I am accustomed to seeing with other cameras, and perhaps it is attributable to the higher resolution sensor.  In this video, wedding photographer/videographer Adam Grumbo tests both the S1 and S1R.  It is a short 3:31 video worth spending the 3 1/2 minutes to watch.  Grumbo finds quite a lot to like about both cameras, but noise is not one of them in the S1R. 

mmmm..... he doesn't state what ISO he is using ..... and I can't see any of the noise he is referring to even at 4K full screen on the video. I suppose we come back to what you intend to use the camera for and whether any real or perceived deficiencies will have  actual consequences in practical usage. 

 

[thighslapper]

Having done some comparison testing this morning with a selection of test images ISO 100 to 12800 with S1R and SL I feel both cameras have similar noise levels to ISO 1600 after which the S1R images diverge and become worse and are very noticeably inferior by 12800.

The situation is slightly complicated by the fact the S1R tends to underexpose (if you go by the centre weighted metering on both) by about 1 stop and equalising exposure in LR possibly accentuates existing noise. 

Unless there is a step change in photosensor technology and sensitivity I suppose you are always going to come up against the issue of the ever shrinking area in which to catch a finite number of photons. Clearly amplification and signal cleaning technology is barely keeping pace with shrinking pixel size, so maybe it's too much to expect significant increases in resolution plus better noise performance. 

I'm interested to see how Leica tackle this issue ...... . The current strategy in FF appears to be offering a choice of sensors as you can't have everything you want in one alone ....

Edited April 26, 2019 by thighslapper

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[thighslapper]

Having mulled all this over I still think it's a bit overplayed as an issue ...... I printed iso 12500 images from my Monochrom several years ago at A2 and the difference on paper from base iso 200 was imperceptible. There was no noise ..... just a very slight loss if crispness and clarity.  Full screen on a 27" iMac I can just spot 3200 at a normal viewing distance as being different to 1600 ..... and only 12800 looks in any way noisy.... and again only if you look for it. I suppose when we all have 65" 8K TV's at home to view images it might be a problem. 

For me, the main advantage over the SL is the increased resolution, giving leeway in cropping, and IBIS. Even if the SL2 sensor has better high ISO performance than the S1R, unless it has a big jump in resolution and stabilisation it will be a hard sell. Being able to handhold the 16-35 in dim interior light at 0.5 sec at iso 100 and get clean images is far better than trying to wring a decent image out of a file at iso 1600-3200.