Weak rangefinder

[valtof]

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I know my M8’s rangefinder is vertically misaligned since I went and see one of my local dealer in Paris to get it fixed. According to what he found, the rangefinder has one mechanical part inside that seems too weak to maintain alignment and therefore it will never stay truly aligned anymore without being really tightened (sending it to Solms or to a certified Leica service).

Since then the misalignment changes from slight to strong, perhaps depending on the way the body has been a bit shacked just before or whatsoever, never mind, it’s not the main issue and I can still handle correct focusing even with a vertical misalignment that’s generally very little.

 

What ‘s more problematic is that the rangefinder is also unable to maintain infinite alignment.

I frequently tuned it perfectly with a 2mm Alen key (using my 50mm Summilux to check at different distance) but it always comes up with a slight misfocusing (generally if not always backfocus) after some days of use.

I really don’t think that this is normal even if I frequently change lenses and always transport my camera in the top-case of my bike, but considering it’s a BMW R1200RT and that the M8 is gently sitting in a specially adapted block of foam to prevent shocking and shacking.

 

Any opinion of what should I conclude or do ?

[jaapv]

Considering the bangs and shocks my M8's survived effortlessly, I suppose he meant a screw had to be tightened..

[Eoin]

Transporting you camera in the top box of your bike regardless of being a BMW or not could be causing low frequency vibrations which is knocking the arm adjustment. Don't forget this is not locked but rather free moving by adjustment of the 2mm hex. The loose screw in the rangefinder would further signify the camera is subjected to vibration. You as the rider and given the dampening forces your various body parts offer are not as rigid or as sensitive to vibration as your camera would be.

 

I do how ever understand your dilemma about not carrying the camera on your person while riding, but being an ex biker (GSX-R 1100) all bikes vibrate a frequencies which humans are just not sensitive to. But given the constant readjustment required I'd suspect the bike may very well be the cause.

[plasticman]

Hi jaap,

 

Is this a serious response? I really can't tell, because it seems to me that whenever anyone, anywhere in the world has any sort of problem whatsoever with their M8, you're always ready to jump in with your testimony that everything's fine with your camera.

 

While I'm really glad that you apparently have a perfect M8 (or several), for those of us who are still unsure about what direction to go in with regard to possibly going digital with the M-line, these problems - and REAL solutions to them - are actually of real interest.

 

While I don't want to be directly rude, can we possibly assume that your camera is always perfect when anyone else posts a problem, and thereby skip the inevitable 'Mine works fine, signed jaapv' post?

[stunsworth]

While I'm really glad that you apparently have a perfect M8 (or several), for those of us who are still unsure about what direction to go in with regard to possibly going digital with the M-line, these problems - and REAL solutions to them - are actually of real interest

 

All cameras will have failures of one kind or another whether they're Canon. Nikon or Leica. What's important is the rate of failure, and at the risk of banging the same drum yet again, only Leica know that. To read some of the threads here you'd get the impression that almost all M8s have an issue in one area or another. That isn't the case and sometimes it can be useful to reflect on that.

 

For the people who have problems I can feel their pain, but for the rest of us the camera operates exactly as intended.

[plasticman]

For the people who have problems I can feel their pain, but for the rest of us the camera operates exactly as intended.

 

Yes Steve - but do you feel it's necessary to jump in to every thread and say so?

 

Btw, while I'm also aware that all cameras have problems - I also have (reluctant) use of a couple of Canon digital cameras (as well as my M6 and M7), and these have worked flawlessly so far (although it may be a little early to tell with the M7...)

 

It would also be wrong to assume that everyone that has a problem with their M8 necessarily registers their problem here - so that for each posting on this forum, one should assume a greater number of failures in the total sample. Although you're not stating that, I've seen it written several times that faults will be over-represented on a forum such as this - which I don't accept is necessarily statistically true.

[stunsworth]

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Well if the title of a thread is 'Are M lenses Really Interchangable?', then yes I will jump in because my experience has been that they are. I assume that the original poster is asking for people's opinions both for and against.

 

I agree that statistically not much, if anything, can be determined from a self selecting response to a question such as above. But if the responses did equate to the real failure rate, then some 80-90% of all M8s would have to be failing, and I rather doubt that is the case. Or at least I hope it isn't for Leica's sake.

[jaapv]

Mani- there are thousands of M8's out there, some of them in daily use and used like any M camera. Whatever one can say about the camera, mechanically robust it is. Somebody has a problem to the extent he has to carry an adjustment key with him - his dealer spins him a bogus story. And I am not allowed to say this is a-typical and probably an undertightened screw or something?

[Shootist]

I know my M8’s rangefinder is vertically misaligned since I went and see one of my local dealer in Paris to get it fixed. According to what he found, the rangefinder has one mechanical part inside that seems too weak to maintain alignment and therefore it will never stay truly aligned anymore without being really tightened (sending it to Solms or to a certified Leica service).

Since then the misalignment changes from slight to strong, perhaps depending on the way the body has been a bit shacked just before or whatsoever, never mind, it’s not the main issue and I can still handle correct focusing even with a vertical misalignment that’s generally very little.

 

What ‘s more problematic is that the rangefinder is also unable to maintain infinite alignment.

I frequently tuned it perfectly with a 2mm Alen key (using my 50mm Summilux to check at different distance) but it always comes up with a slight misfocusing (generally if not always backfocus) after some days of use.

I really don’t think that this is normal even if I frequently change lenses and always transport my camera in the top-case of my bike, but considering it’s a BMW R1200RT and that the M8 is gently sitting in a specially adapted block of foam to prevent shocking and shacking.

 

Any opinion of what should I conclude or do ?

 

Not sure when your M8 was made but from other posts on this forum the original units did not have a locking substance placed on the verticle allignment bar, there is NO screw to lock that bar in place. My newest unit, at least as far as serial # go, has some type of lacquer or other substance locking the verticle allignment bar from moving. I haven't carried my M8 on a bike but I have carried it in a golf cart on a golf course for 4+ hours and it never went out of verticle allignment.

[andyturk]

For the people who have problems I can feel their pain, but for the rest of us the camera operates exactly as intended.

I met one of the other members here over the weekend who also has an M8. As we were swapping lenses he asked, "Let me look through your viewfinder. I think mine might have an issue." He said the focusing image wasn't sharp. After looking through mine he said, "Yup, back to Solms it goes!"

 

The vertical alignment on his camera was off. I looked through his camera and saw it right away. It was just like my dear old Epson R-D1. He's been using his M8 for several months and only noticed the problem recently, so it's likely that something moved inside the rangefinder. I've had mine only a month and it's still perfect in that respect.

 

With my Epson, I can get out the screwdriver and re-align the rangefinder without too much trouble. I'm not sure it's quite so easy with the M8, and I'll be disappointed if mine slips out of alignment too over time.

[plasticman]

And I am not allowed to say this is a-typical and probably an undertightened screw or something?

 

I actually couldn't judge whether your original response was serious or facetious. I'm glad to see it was your considered opinion that 'a screw had to be tightened', and not simply an attempt to belittle another owner's problems.

 

Well if the title of a thread is 'Are M lenses Really Interchangable?', then yes I will jump in because my experience has been that they are. I assume that the original poster is asking for people's opinions both for and against.

 

This thread didn't seem to me to be inviting responses 'for and against' - but now jaap has explained that he was seriously advocating the loose screw diagnosis, so I withdraw my objection.

 

As for the statistics, one of the things that's struck me recently is the number of posters saying something like "this problem also happened to me, and after the camera comes back from Solms..." etc - indicating that their first instinct was not to post the problem here, until someone else did so...

 

Problems with the viewfinder are of interest to any M user of course - I recently took the M6 on a ride through the woods on my mountain bike. I don't think I'll be repeating that excursion.

[Shootist]

I met one of the other members here over the weekend who also has an M8. As we were swapping lenses he asked, "Let me look through your viewfinder. I think mine might have an issue." He said the focusing image wasn't sharp. After looking through mine he said, "Yup, back to Solms it goes!"

 

The vertical alignment on his camera was off. I looked through his camera and saw it right away. It was just like my dear old Epson R-D1. He's been using his M8 for several months and only noticed the problem recently, so it's likely that something moved inside the rangefinder. I've had mine only a month and it's still perfect in that respect.

 

With my Epson, I can get out the screwdriver and re-align the rangefinder without too much trouble. I'm not sure it's quite so easy with the M8, and I'll be disappointed if mine slips out of alignment too over time.

 

With the older M's you could use a screwdriver to make the adjustment but with the M8 you need a special tool. the M8 RF is brand new, never used in any other M, or so I am lead to believe.

[valtof]

Considering the bangs and shocks my M8's survived effortlessly, I suppose he meant a screw had to be tightened..

 

Thanks for all your replies.

 

According to some serious dealers in Paris, “everyday life” shacking and engine vibrations are probably not enough to disturb the rangefinder to such an extent that it would become misaligned – only a serious shock, like falling to the ground, can produce such a result.

 

As a fulfil to my initial thread, I can state that I biked from Paris to Montélimar (around 700 km) three weeks ago with all my Leica stuff in the top-case (the M8 body sitting on a piece of bullpack inside my Billingham) and that soon arrived at dinner time, I shot several portraits of my friends with the 50 Summilux at full aperture and none of these shots were out of focus in any manner.

So I can believe that the biking isn’t the problem.

Since this trip, I’m sure I have already made once a rangefinder infinite adjustment with the Alen key and that everything was OK.

Three days ago, as I often do so, I took some shots with the Lux from my place just for fun and all of them were perfectly in focus. Then Saturday night and sunday afternoon, all the shots I took with the Lux and also my 50/f1.2 Canon were backfocussed again, and indeed, after checking properly, the RF was again misaligned.

All this to say that the problem seems to arise without any obvious reason, apart from maybe changing intensively of lenses, something I remember I did before this set of OOF shots, but again, could this be a reason !

 

As I already wrote, I do know the vertical misalignment needs a screw or whatsoever piece of mechanism to be tightened, fixed or changed, but what to think and do about the infinite misalignment ?

[charlesphoto99]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

According to some serious dealers in Paris, “everyday life” shacking and engine vibrations are probably not enough to disturb the rangefinder to such an extent that it would become misaligned – only a serious shock, like falling to the ground, can produce such a result.

 

As a fulfil to my initial thread, I can state that I biked from Paris to Montélimar (around 700 km) three weeks ago with all my Leica stuff in the top-case (the M8 body sitting on a piece of bullpack inside my Billingham) and that soon arrived at dinner time, I shot several portraits of my friends with the 50 Summilux at full aperture and none of these shots were out of focus in any manner.

So I can believe that the biking isn’t the problem.

Since this trip, I’m sure I have already made once a rangefinder infinite adjustment with the Alen key and that everything was OK.

Three days ago, as I often do so, I took some shots with the Lux from my place just for fun and all of them were perfectly in focus. Then Saturday night and sunday afternoon, all the shots I took with the Lux and also my 50/f1.2 Canon were backfocussed again, and indeed, after checking properly, the RF was again misaligned.

All this to say that the problem seems to arise without any obvious reason, apart from maybe changing intensively of lenses, something I remember I did before this set of OOF shots, but again, could this be a reason !

 

As I already wrote, I do know the vertical misalignment needs a screw or whatsoever piece of mechanism to be tightened, fixed or changed, but what to think and do about the infinite misalignment ?

 

Well, I've explained on here again and again (with hardly anybody listening or at least wanting to hear it) that just adjusting the infinity screw alone can possibly knock other distances out without also adjusting the near/far screw as well. There's a fine dance between the two. It's easy to do but one has to be meticulous about it and keep checking focus at infinity, 10 or so meters, and one meter. And then back again. Without a jig set up one has to rely on the preview screen so it can take a while. Otherwise sounds like its ready for a trip to Solms. At least you're on that side of the Atlantic.

 

The only time I've had a vertical misalignment problem was with a M6 that got knocked out after a long ride on a Chinese made bicycle in the countryside outside of Hanoi. Of course a BMW on European roads is gonna be a much smoother ride than that! I think it's a loose screw.

[jaapv]

It seems I misformulated - I meant - some cameras are carried around all day and are taken out on the skiing slope and subjected to all kinds of bumps stay aligned - So it seems unlikely this is a general weak point of the M8, as was suggested to the OP. That I happened to be talking about my personal experience is beside the point in that respect - but shows I am not simply parroting. So sorry - the intention of the post was different from what was read into it.

[Guest sirvine]

I'd be surprised if this was a design flaw. My experience is like Jaap's-- I bang this camera up, knock it into things, drop it into bags, throw it under the seat on my scooter--and my rangefinder has never slipped an iota (at least not a perceptible iota). Of course, my Epson was the same way, so...

[ho_co]

Hi jaap,

Is this a serious response? I really can't tell, because it seems to me that whenever anyone, anywhere in the world has any sort of problem whatsoever with their M8, you're always ready to jump in with your testimony that everything's fine with your camera.

Mani--

If you read his response as I do, it was "I think a screw needs to be tightened," with an aside that at least some cameras (his) seem able to withstand a fair amount of abuse. To my eye, his subsequent reformulation showed deference to you but was totally unnecessary.

 

To criticize Jaap for offering assistance seems very peculiar to me, particularly since you didn't go on to offer any yourself.

 

But that's off-topic, so let's drop it.

 

 

Christophe--

Mark Norton and others have demonstrated that the rangefinder in the M8 is very similar to that of other M's, and that is a very robust ilk.

 

As several have said, home-made adjustments to the rangefinder of any M can be dangerous. (I find it curious that people advise against using $20 batteries in the M8 but have no scruples about readjusting this $5000 camera with a tool that cost them $2. )

 

Rather than speculate: Send the camera to a Leica authorized repair facility with a note fully describing the problem and your wishes, something like:

1) vertical alignment off;

2) vertical alignment loose, inconsistent;

3) infinity adjustment is loose and inconsistent, despite my attempts to reset it;

4) full check and adjustment of rangefinder for all distances please

 

Most on the forum would agree that the camera can be fixed reliably; reliability is what Leica is known for.

 

Well, I've explained on here again and again (with hardly anybody listening or at least wanting to hear it) that just adjusting the infinity screw alone can possibly knock other distances out without also adjusting the near/far screw as well.

Don't think you're unloved or unread. Most of us haven't commented on your postings because they are valid and should be obvious: Don't do the operation if you don't understand it fully. The problem is that we don't know what we don't know. I think Will Rogers said, "It's not the things we don't know that hurt us; it's the things we know that just ain't so."

 

...I recently took the M6 on a ride through the woods on my mountain bike. I don't think I'll be repeating that excursion.

Mani--that sounds interesting. Tell us more. Your post implies that you had bad experiences on the trek. Were they with your stamina, with the bike, with the M6?

 

--HC

[charlesphoto99]

I'm actually advising AGAINST the infinity cam adjustment that everyone here throws about willy nilly. "oh just bump it back and forth depending on what lens you have on" sort of thing. Yes, it may bring things into line at some specific point, but unless one goes a step further it may throw off focus in the mid region (esp) and one may not realise that until in the field.

[valtof]

I'm actually advising AGAINST the infinity cam adjustment that everyone here throws about willy nilly. "oh just bump it back and forth depending on what lens you have on" sort of thing. Yes, it may bring things into line at some specific point, but unless one goes a step further it may throw off focus in the mid region (esp) and one may not realise that until in the field.

 

Charles, Howard and Jaap,

thanks for taking care.

 

I won't quote everything that's related to this in this thread but as to infinity cam adjustment, each time I did that, it always came up with perfect focus at all distance, as much as I can judge that, so let say "satisfying" to my eyes.

I will go and find a Leica authorized repair facility in Paris to fix all this the right way... but it's so hard to imagine being without my M8 even for one week. That's why I didn't till now.

Cheers

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[stunsworth]

Christophe, all Leica approved rangefinder calibrations involve a trip back to Solms. I was at Leica UK last week and asked if they were able to adjust this in the UK and was told no. I was also told that they adjust the rangefinder at 6 different points - I assume the person who told me this was referring to 6 different distances, so it's not just close up and infinity.