Monochrom type 1 vs M10

[Musotographer]

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I've got it into my head that I want a Monochrom (1st version) - but I'm also trying to persuade myself that my M10 + S Efex Pro is more than adequate, and that would save me £3000.

Does anyone think the quality of this would be significantly different if I'd used a Monochrom? (Leaving aside the dullness of the actual photograph and the downgrading of detail when uploading.)

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[Musotographer]

Another one, also 35/1.4 pre-Asph.....

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[Ken Abrahams]

Yes

[MarkP]

I currently have the M10, SL, and the Monochrom v1.

I just can't bring myself to sell the Monochrom as  my opinion it still produces B&W images with better tonal range, more 'filmic' grain (pardoners the neologism) and more resolution than the M9, M240, M10 and SL. I have not used the Monochrom v2.  

Having said that, the Monochrom files do require more work.

 

 

 

[AceVentura1986]

1 hour ago, MarkP said:

I currently have the M10, SL, and the Monochrom v1.

I just can't bring myself to sell the Monochrom as  my opinion it still produces B&W images with better tonal range, more 'filmic' grain (pardoners the neologism) and more resolution than the M9, M240, M10 and SL. I have not used the Monochrom v2.  

Having said that, the Monochrom files do require more work.

 

 

 

Interesting, I’ve found exactly the opposite, at least to generate a BW image. Overtime I settled on settings that I find work in the vast majority of my M9M shots. I apply them to all on import and then tweak the images afterward. The only major tweak I usually need to do is for exposure as I tend to shoot slightly underexposed in order to avoid clipping the highlights. Otherwise, I find shooting with my ME and converting to BW more time consuming and in the end less satisfying than the M9M images. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by AceVentura1986

[a.noctilux]

One thing that no color-sensor-M can give me is this "b&w mindset" when I use Monochrom.

When I plan to obtain "in the field" (as opposed to PP with color files) the tone that I had "in mind at that very moment", I put on the "right" colored filter.

With my experience, I don't obtain the same "satisfied photos" when I use M10 (or others) and PP converted color files to b&w, as with direct from Monochrom.

So for me M10 is for color and Monochrom is for "b&w" = I'm lucky enough to have this kind of choice now.

I've PP converted color to b&w for long, before that I had no choice and "b&w mindset" is new for me when I purchased  Monochrom.

 

[Jager]

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Is an M10 "more than adequate" for black and white images?  Of course.

Would the quality of those M10 conversions be "signficantly" different versus a Monochrom?  Probably not.

Look, no offense to the OP or anyone else - but variations of this "is it as good as" question crop up with monotonous regularity around here.  Here's the thing... if you have to ask the question, you're probably better off just staying with your <fill-in-the-blank> color camera and pocketing the savings.

Black and white photography is its own thing.  It's own ethos.  Its own process.  Its own history.  Its own tonal response to light.  Its own way of viewing the world.  The modern practice of flipping a few bits after the fact in a color file doesn't remotely begin to give it its due.   Which is not to say that you need a Monocrom to do great black and white work.  You don't.  But what you do have to have... is an appreciation of all those layers, all those nuances, all those things that go into making a strong black and white image.  Removing color from a file is the very least of it.

The Monochrom - both variants - are very special cameras.  They provide a signature and an artistic expression which are unique in photography.  But just like loading a fresh new film emulsion back in the day did nothing to guarantee an improvement in one's work, wielding a Monochrom today says nothing except that you possess a very powerful tool.

You'll know the day you need a Monochrom... because on that day nothing else will do.

And it will have nothing to do with a couple of 100K jpegs on an internet forum somewhere, and the question "can you tell which was taken by which?"

 

[pico]

1 hour ago, Jager said:

But what you do have to have... is an appreciation of all those layers,

Layers? A figure of speech, correct?

 

[dkmoore]

9 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

One thing that no color-sensor-M can give me is this "b&w mindset" when I use Monochrom.

When I plan to obtain "in the field" (as opposed to PP with color files) the tone that I had "in mind at that very moment", I put on the "right" colored filter.

With my experience, I don't obtain the same "satisfied photos" when I use M10 (or others) and PP converted color files to b&w, as with direct from Monochrom.

So for me M10 is for color and Monochrom is for "b&w" = I'm lucky enough to have this kind of choice now.

I've PP converted color to b&w for long, before that I had no choice and "b&w mindset" is new for me when I purchased  Monochrom.

 

sounds kinda hokey but I agree 100%. Truth.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Musotographer said:

I've got it into my head that I want a Monochrom (1st version) - but I'm also trying to persuade myself that my M10 + S Efex Pro is more than adequate, and that would save me £3000.

Does anyone think the quality of this would be significantly different if I'd used a Monochrom? (Leaving aside the dullness of the actual photograph and the downgrading of detail when uploading.)

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lovely B&W processing !

 

[Musotographer]

Thank you all (especially hemlock! - I'll PM you). I may have given the impression that my desire for a Monochrom was just a whim, but that really isn't the case. I've been admiring B&W photographs for years, and tend to convert most of my better photos to B&W anyway - taking a lot of time and pleasure in the process. I was on the waiting list at Leica Mayfair for the 246, but when it arrived I bottled out - I couldn't quite give up colour on a Leica altogether, and at the time I certainly couldn't afford two Leica bodies. Things are a little easier now - I suspect a Monochrom is going to be part of my life fairly soon.

[a.noctilux]

As I wrote earlier, those color sensors are very different in "mindset" from Monochrom.

To take things simple (as only my experiences of course, nothing universal),

time told me that I might change my photographic practice(s) and thingking(s).

 

Long long time ago, some decades, when I "must" choose color film and/or b&w in my twice yearly travellings.

In those Kodachrome days, my choice went to more simple process for me = color slides (nothing to do after photos taken).

But I kept b&w images in my mind since I was able to convert color in b&w in digital days.

The revelation for me as when I travelled, some images taken in color but with "b&w in my mind".

 

as this one Kodachrome 64 original on M6

"scanned" with Monochrom much later

 

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I'm glad that I took those images in color and now I can "do" b&w from them

now process is simpler with Monochrom for b&w AND color sensors for color

 

[andrea-i]

I can only think of two major points in favor of the MM1:

1) it forces you to shoot B&W, to me this is really crucial or else I end up keeping my files in color
2) CCD rendering

On the other hand, an M10 is capable of great b&w jpegs straight out of camera.
One things I don't get about people's desire towards a monochrome though, is their fascination with the increased resolution.

For a while I refused to shoot b&w jpeg in camera with my M8 because the files were too small and I felt I was wasting shots and loosing PP flexibility.
It was only after I went back to my old B&W scanned tri-x that I realized how gritty, grainy and just not sharp at all my B&W photos where, even though they had been captured on 35mm with great leica glass on my M film camera.
Digital is playing funny tricks, that M10 is probably a great B&W camera when set to jpeg b&w only ; )

[norm_snyder]

I have been using the MM1 as well as the M10 for about a year, now, having previously been using a pair of MM1s and selling one, to help finance the purchase of the M10.  I originally thought I would end up selling the second Monochrom and getting a second M10, but have not been able to consider it, mainly because the files from the former still look better to me than converted color files from the latter.  

The color camera has the obvious advantage of it's color files, for some, but I am almost exclusively a black and white shooter and have been for many years.  It does have a much better rear display.  Finally it has live view and has about 1 1/2 stop iso advantage for me, perhaps two, when raw files are converted to black and white, but the lower mid-tones still look better to me from the older, M9 based Monochrom.  

The result of this is that the M10 has become my preferred camera for situations in which I am dealing with abysmally poor light, and the MM remains my preferred camera for every other situation.  The difference in the depth of the camera body is negligible and I tend not to notice it while I am shooting.  If I am headed out the door and grab a camera to take along, which I almost always do, it's the Monochrom. 

[johnbuckley]

This is one of those rare threads where I actually find myself in agreement with many people. As Jager and I have both been Monochrom shooters since the beginning, I'm not surprised we're in alignment.  I also particularly agree with this:

On 3/12/2019 at 10:02 AM, a.noctilux said:

One thing that no color-sensor-M can give me is this "b&w mindset" when I use Monochrom.

The OP asked if the Monochrom would have rendered those images appreciably differently, and the answer, as Jeff (Jager) has it is: probably not. But there is nothing quite like going out with only the Monochrom in your hand and knowing that color isn't an option. You look at things differently. You would be attracted to different images. You might shoot with different settings, particularly exposure compensation.

I had an M9M, and then got a Monochrom-246. I also shoot with an M10 and an SL. Using the the SL last fall to shoot Washington D.C.'s legendary High Heel race of drag queens , I found that, yes, it was faster and easier to shoot a Noctilux with it than the Monochrom. But the SL files were *so* much harder to get to the look I'm used to from the Monochrom that I wouldn't take that approach again. I'd take the Monochrom, and miss a few shots. The images I would get would be closer to what I want in black and white. And I don't just meant that in terms of the obvious point that they would come out of the camera in black and white.

But all those images are taken at night. In the ordinary course of business -- in daylight, at moderate ISO -- can an M10 get you very close to what you want from a Monochrom? Yes, it can. But shooting in the "B&W mindset"? Nope, can't do that.

[Musotographer]

Superlative photographs sir - and I think you're probably right about the B&W mindset. At least I hope you are - my MM1 arrives tomorrow....

[james.liam]

13 minutes ago, Musotographer said:

Superlative photographs sir - and I think you're probably right about the B&W mindset. At least I hope you are - my MM1 arrives tomorrow....

Congratulations! (sensor changed already, I hope...)

One other thing to factor in, is the use of lenses with either Monochrom. Older Canon LTM, Nikkor LTM and Leica LTM & M that made their appearance between 1930-1960 were designed (for the most part) with B&W film in mind, and they sing on these sensors. 

[Musotographer]

Thanks - oh yes, new sensor last year.

I have a few older lenses and I'm looking forward to seeing them sing on the MM1 - a lovely collapsible 50/2, a Canon LTM 35/2 and a Jupiter3. Also a few slightly younger-but-not-exactly-modern ones like the pre-asph 35/1.4 and the thin 90/2.8. My one slight regret about plumping for the MM1 rather than the 246 is that I won't be able to use one of my all-time favourites on it, the R80/1.4 - but you can't have everything.