sabears Posted March 1, 2019 Share #21 Posted March 1, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) For a correct answer, please unscrew the lens head, and post a photo from the top of the two parts, side by side Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 1, 2019 Posted March 1, 2019 Hi sabears, Take a look here Leica Rigid Summicron-M 2.0/50mm Black Paint . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pedaes Posted March 1, 2019 Share #22 Posted March 1, 2019 45 minutes ago, sabears said: For a correct answer, please unscrew the lens head, and post a photo from the top of the two parts, side by side Correct answer to what question? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted March 1, 2019 Share #23 Posted March 1, 2019 2 hours ago, tri said: So it looks like top auction houses are worth their fees and it is worthwhile for their customers Interesting events in Wetzlar this autumn. Yes - and whatever you do you need to get it visible to Asian collectors who pay mega bucks for black paint M2's etc which this lens will suit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandro Posted March 1, 2019 Share #24 Posted March 1, 2019 Perhaps there is another interesting element on this lens. To the right of the M of the focusing scale, and right under 'feet' the number 19 is engraved, to indicate the real focal point of 51,9 mm. We have discussed this feature several times in the forum, and that feature appears on several lenses. My chrome (of course) version of the rigid Summicron 50mm is from 1960. It does not show such a number on the position as I noticed in Ivar's black lens, but the same number appears in another variation engraved by hand on the lens head as 51,9. Both on my Elmar 2.8/50mm (1961) and on my Summicron 2/50mm version III he number 19 appears in more or less the same position as on Ivar's black Summicron. Would be interesting to know if anything is engraved on the lens head. Lex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2019 Share #25 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) If I had a photo article for sale worth a five digit €$£ price, I‘d only consider a reputable auction house. On the other hand it looks like transaction costs matter as least as much to you as the end result, so maybe you find locally a Chinese student, who could establish contacts with agents or even a collector in his country. This in case you decide to shoulder the (unlikely) risks involved in this procedure for your friend, the pensioner who owns the lens. Edited March 2, 2019 by tri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 2, 2019 Share #26 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, sandro said: Perhaps there is another interesting element on this lens. To the right of the M of the focusing scale, and right under 'feet' the number 19 is engraved, to indicate the real focal point of 51,9 mm. We have discussed this feature several times in the forum, and that feature appears on several lenses. My chrome (of course) version of the rigid Summicron 50mm is from 1960. It does not show such a number on the position as I noticed in Ivar's black lens, but the same number appears in another variation engraved by hand on the lens head as 51,9. Both on my Elmar 2.8/50mm (1961) and on my Summicron 2/50mm version III he number 19 appears in more or less the same position as on Ivar's black Summicron. Would be interesting to know if anything is engraved on the lens head. Lex My Chrome of similar age (1.986.334) has the "19" exactly in the same position as Ivar's (and hand-scrtached on the lenshead, too) (and my red dot is a bit smaller… but is a replacement.. I lost the original… ) Edited March 2, 2019 by luigi bertolotti Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share #27 Posted March 2, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) I contacted the expert over all experts, James Lager, and he believes the lens may have been sold with a black M2 or M3. He says that often Leica themselves have no reliable records of the actual design of a lens produced. In my first e-mail to him I did not include any photos but he asked for them and I have sent them to him now. Personally, I have no doubt this is an original and not a copy. Two owners, and the last owner has had the lens for about 40 years and most certainly has not repainted. Interesting also that identical lenses with very close serial numbers exist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share #28 Posted March 2, 2019 10 hours ago, sabears said: For a correct answer, please unscrew the lens head, and post a photo from the top of the two parts, side by side This lens actually belongs to someone else and he has put trust in me by sending it over, and I am sceptical to unscrewing anything, even it it is considered safe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 2, 2019 Share #29 Posted March 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, Ivar B said: I contacted the expert over all experts, James Lager, and he believes the lens may have been sold with a black M2 or M3. He says that often Leica themselves have no reliable records of the actual design of a lens produced. In my first e-mail to him I did not include any photos but he asked for them and I have sent them to him now. Personally, I have no doubt this is an original and not a copy. Two owners, and the last owner has had the lens for about 40 years and most certainly has not repainted. Interesting also that identical lenses with very close serial numbers exist. If Jim Lager says it is genuine, then I would accept that. The next step is getting a value for it that resembles what is shown on Collectiblend from a reliable source ( ie one that is good for the money). For that, my recommendation is still to use a reputable auction house or a recognised expert seller. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share #30 Posted March 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, willeica said: If Jim Lager says it is genuine, then I would accept that. The next step is getting a value for it that resembles what is shown on Collectiblend from a reliable source ( ie one that is good for the money). For that, my recommendation is still to use a reputable auction house or a recognised expert seller. William It is not always easy to obtain fair market values for something which is thinly traded (I am an economist). This particular lens appears to be in at least as good condition as the one offered for sale on eBay by Schouten for $12 500, but that price is no doubt excessive and probably he has also factored in around 20 % transaction costs on eBay. My guesstimate is that we are probably in the region of about half of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximilianm3 Posted March 2, 2019 Share #31 Posted March 2, 2019 To answer your first question: put it on ebay for the price you think is justified and prepare to wait a long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 2, 2019 Share #32 Posted March 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ivar B said: It is not always easy to obtain fair market values for something which is thinly traded (I am an economist). This particular lens appears to be in at least as good condition as the one offered for sale on eBay by Schouten for $12 500, but that price is no doubt excessive and probably he has also factored in around 20 % transaction costs on eBay. My guesstimate is that we are probably in the region of about half of that. The 'thin trading' is why I recommend a seller with expertise and secure payment systems. Most of them have regular clients who are wealthy. I agree that the Schouten price is over the top as are a lot of the items on that site. As you say, an expert seller will know how to factor in transaction costs. Schouten and other dealers operate directly as well as on eBay. The latter is just a way of casting the net further. With an expert seller you are getting a much wider catchment base, which is what this item needs. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted March 2, 2019 Share #33 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) WestLicht Auction is now Leitz Photographica Auction; the next sale is in June and not too late to approach them … but the lens owner might have to open an account with them in accordance with terms and conditions http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=3&L=1 It's possible to check WestLicht's previous auctions for a similar lens sale. The Lars Netopil / Jo Geier, Wetzlar Camera Auction https://www.wetzlarcameraauctions.com/en-gb/home is in October Both auction houses would authenticate the lens prior to sale and both likely offer the best means of realising a high sale price … which even after commission and charges could be much higher than that achieved via a private or dealer sale … or Ebay. dunk Edited March 2, 2019 by dkCambridgeshire typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2019 Share #34 Posted March 2, 2019 Wouldn‘t it fit into your collection, Ivar? Or not so keen of black tulips...err! black paint Leica gear from the fifties and sixties? Best, Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted March 2, 2019 Share #35 Posted March 2, 2019 12 hours ago, pedaes said: Correct answer to what question? If the lens is original Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted March 2, 2019 Share #36 Posted March 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Ivar B said: This lens actually belongs to someone else and he has put trust in me by sending it over, and I am sceptical to unscrewing anything, even it it is considered safe. To unscrew the lens head is a routine-super-safe operation, this will be done for sure in any case, before you sell it, and will be requested even by auction house, so it is unavoidable... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted March 2, 2019 Share #37 Posted March 2, 2019 1 hour ago, sabears said: If the lens is original How? It will show if focusing rear 'half' has same number as front, but what else? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted March 2, 2019 Share #38 Posted March 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, pedaes said: How? It will show if focusing rear 'half' has same number as front, but what else? The inside is not like the "normal" summicron one: all the inside must be hard black anodized, but there are also traces of black paint in some specific places... Better an image than 1000 words ... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie Posted March 2, 2019 Share #39 Posted March 2, 2019 23 hours ago, Ivar B said: Auctions are expensive, though. Westlicht adds 20 % to the hammer price for the buyer and subtracts 20 % of the hammer price when the seller is paid, If Westlicht only charge 20% commission I'd call that a bargain. Most auctioneers in the UK charge about 25% plus VAT of course. Are you sure of the seller's commission? Often the seller pays less than the buyer. I think you'd get a better price at auction as they attract the seriously wealthy collector. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share #40 Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Susie said: If Westlicht only charge 20% commission I'd call that a bargain. Most auctioneers in the UK charge about 25% plus VAT of course. Are you sure of the seller's commission? Often the seller pays less than the buyer. I think you'd get a better price at auction as they attract the seriously wealthy collector. I sold one lens through Westlicht, and told myself never again. Let us assume the hammer price was 100. They add 20 - 24 % on the hammer price, depending on if it is a sale inside the EU or not. Let us assume this is an outside EU buyer, so the buyer pays 120. They deduct 18 % for the seller, plus a little for insurance etc, who then receives around 80. Total fees 20 + 20 = 40 or 40 % of the hammer price. I find that excessive, but of course this is magnified when in my case the hammer price was not even close to the assessment and it would have been much better with a direct sale. I sold my Noctilux 1.2/50mm on Facebook for about 17 500 Euros, which is or was the same price as realised in auctions. However, fees were then 0 % either way. I agree that in some cases of course they may have access to buyer with a higher willingness to pay, in particular as auction sale would probably be seen as less risky. Of course seller reputation is important, and for example in the Noctilux sale the buyer was unknown to me, but he had seen me being active in the forum here and for him this was important. He was super happy by the way to get a mint 1.2/50mm - he had been looking for one for year. Edited March 2, 2019 by Ivar B spelling error Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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