100 MPs for the SL? no problem! Interesting Interview with lens designer Peter Karbe [merged]

[scott kirkpatrick]

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That's a quote from Peter Karbe that appears in an interview by Thorsten Overgaard.  The interview took place at the time of the LHSA meeting in 2018, has only just appeared now either because of Thorsten's busy schedule, or more likely an embargo until more of the L-mount events have occurred. He did a long interview with Peter Karbe which has some interesting partial reveals.

a few tidbits from the rest of the article:  Leica considering use of both in-body sensor stabilization for the SL, along with in lens image stabilization, and what sounded like an interest for long lens stabilization in doing what astronomers do to correct fluctuations in atmospheric density, as seen across the field.  A picture of Stephan Daniel at age 17 at his repairman's desk with tools. No new longer lenses for the 64 MPx S3 and successors, since the SL will do that better.

 

http://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601-Leica-SL-Small-Camera-Large-Print-and-Large-Lenses.html

Edited February 24, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

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[LocalHero1953]

Interesting that Leica were surprised by the introduction of the Panasonic S1! All those who think the SL2 will be a S1/S1R in a new body: take note.

Other takeaways:

- SL2 will have more than 24Mp: disappointing for those, like me, that would prefer the status quo, but not surprising. Karbe: "Do you need 60MP? I don't think so. But probably we'll get it anyways". My point exactly!

- No new S lenses currently planned at all "for the moment", not just long ones, and S will remain a DSLR ("much too early" to change to mirrorless). I suspect the two are linked: why design a new lens if you're going to change to a shorter register before long?

- As you say, Scott, sounds like IBIS is a real interest; no aversion in principle (as seems to be the case for LENR). I'd lay a bit of cautious money that the SL2 will have it.

Edited February 24, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[scott kirkpatrick]

16 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Interesting that Leica were surprised by the introduction of the Panasonic S1! All those who think the SL2 will be a S1/S1R in a new body: take note.

Other takeaways:

- SL2 will have more than 24Mp: disappointing for those, like me, that would prefer the status quo, but not surprising

- No new S lenses currently planned at all "for the moment", not just long ones, and S will remain a DSLR ("much too early" to change to mirrorless). I suspect the two are linked: why design a new lens if you're going to change to a shorter register before long?

Stephan Daniel keeps repeating that (under the EU's competition laws) the L-mount agreement is not a teaming up but a collaboration in which they are not allowed to share future product information.  So what else can he say?  But I think "surprised" is an overstatement.

The L-mount is claimed not to support wider than 35mm full frame sensors, and with MPx going through the roof, why build heavier longer lenses to cover a few more square cm of image size?  Hence longer lenses for the SL.  I suspect prices for these will also be astounding, as they are rented, or purchased by specialists. 

Edited February 24, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[LocalHero1953]

18 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Stephan Daniel keeps repeating that (under the EU's competition laws) the L-mount agreement is not a teaming up but a collaboration in which they are not allowed to share future product information.  So what else can he say?  But I think "surprised" is an overstatement.

The L-mount is claimed not to support wider than 35mm full frame sensors, and with MPx going through the roof, why build heavier longer lenses to cover a few more square cm of image size?  Hence longer lenses for the SL.  I suspect prices for these will also be astounding, as they are rented, or purchased by specialists. 

Yes, I wondered if "surprised" was a language (translation or non-mother tongue) glitch.

Edited February 24, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[scott kirkpatrick]

With the shorter product cycles of a few years ago, I would have expected 36 MPX cameras by now, but the choice of 47 MPx for the next generation standard sensor parts must have been made in 2017 or so.  Notice the emphasis on managing heat -- you can have 64 MPx but only if you skip live view entirely.  When I worked at IBM in the previous century we used to put together charts projecting future microprocessor energy densities with an arrow indicating that sometime around 2010 we would reach the surface temperature of the sun.  

[LocalHero1953]

A couple of other interesting comments:

- the size of SL lenses is down to AF. You can have fast AF with the best IQ or you can have small lenses - you can't have it all. Which is why everyone else's best lenses are getting bigger.

- Peter Karbe: "the SL system is just more for the photographer............ The M camera is a teacher". Discuss!!

[jaapv]

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Well, an M does force the user to master the basics of photography. One can get away with  less using an automated camera.

[Chaemono]

Man, the first part of the article gives away almost everything about the SL2, almost everything. And what is not alluded to (more MPx, IBIS) can be inferred by reading between the lines in Stephan Schulz’ comment here: “We at Leica are similarly surprised when Panasonic brings a new product,...because we don't know it before....we are competitors also, so that means we are not allowed to exchange any data about...upcoming products, and so on." Tells me they will use some technology to differentiate the SL2 from the S1R and charge a premium for it. 😀

[Bob Andersson]

A 100 MP SL with a 3 μm pixel pitch? I profoundly hope not! But at least we have a lens designer confirming that current SL glass can take advantage of the pixel shift technology in the Panasonic S1, if not the S1R. 😀

I have no trouble believing Stephan Schulz when he says "We at Leica are similarly surprised when Panasonic brings a new product, like Panasonic Lumix DC -S1R with 47MP, because we don't know it before" as that is, as I understand it, just a statement of the law. Whatever one feels about the aesthetics and ergonomics of the S1/S1R I suspect those product announcements must have been a body blow to the team who, at a guess, were already pretty far along in the SL2 design. Maybe I'll change my mind when I finally get an S1R in hand at The Photography Show in the UK in a few weeks time but it seems to me that the business model for an all singing all dancing SL2 collapsed when Panasonic made their announcement.

I may be in a minority but if Leica makes a decision not to try to out-compete a financial giant like Panasonic on turf already claimed by the S1 and S1R and instead it drives the SL2 design down a "less is more" path together with a healthy dose of those Leica aesthetics and ergonomics then that would be wonderful. But the delay in finding out what they plan is, to employ a little British understatement, a tad frustrating. 🤣

[Chaemono]

Yes, a bit of a blow, especially the Panasonic price points. Leica will have to take the “more is less is more” approach now to differentiate the SL2. Competition can be a wonderful thing.

[LocalHero1953]

There seems to be an assumption in previous posts that Leica actually was designing an all-singing, all-dancing SL2, rather than following 'das Wesentliche' approach - which seems more likely to me.

Perhaps there was some surprise at Panasonic's 'brave' choice of the all-you-can-eat monster approach to mirrorless, rather than small is beautiful.

Whatever, I doubt Leica has ever intended to compete with Panasonic on similar features, aesthetics and ergonomics.

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[helged]

5 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

There seems to be an assumption in previous posts that Leica actually was designing an all-singing, all-dancing SL2, rather than following 'das Wesentliche' approach - which seems more likely to me.

Perhaps there was some surprise at Panasonic's 'brave' choice of the all-you-can-eat monster approach to mirrorless, rather than small is beautiful.

Whatever, I doubt Leica has ever intended to compete with Panasonic on similar features, aesthetics and ergonomics.

 

and price...

[thighslapper]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

- As you say, Scott, sounds like IBIS is a real interest; no aversion in principle (as seems to be the case for LENR). I'd lay a bit of cautious money that the SL2 will have it.

.... mmm...... you are more of an optimist to me...... my interpretation of the comments were that it was a future option ..... 

ditto with a big mpx jump based on the concerns about heating and noise .....

I have a rather sinking feeling it will be 37mpx, no IBIS and just body changes and a better EVF/LCD. The fact that the new S uses the old Meastro 2 processor is a concern. 

I very much hope I am wrong. 

[LocalHero1953]

Well, I did say "a bit of cautious money" - I'm not laying my life down on it!

[Agent M10]

5 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

A few tidbits from the rest of the article:  Leica considering use of both in-body sensor stabilization for the SL, along with in lens image stabilization, and what sounded like an interest for long lens stabilization in doing what astronomers do to correct fluctuations in atmospheric density, as seen across the field.

 

http://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601-Leica-SL-Small-Camera-Large-Print-and-Large-Lenses.html

Thank you for the reference. Hopefully, any increase in MP (heat) and IBIS won’t translate into a bigger body. If so, I’ll continue to be happy with the SL I’ve got.

[Chaemono]

Thighslapper’s hunch could very well turn out to be correct. But commercially it would be so myopic if not moronic to strike an alliance with Panasonic in the mirrorless Pro segment and not expect to compete on features like MPx, IBIS, AF. Simply idiotic. As far as ‘Das Wesentliche’ is concerned, screw that if it means technologically inferior mirrorless Pro camera, read B&H listing ‘Discontinued.’ 🤣 Users will bail out and take their SL lenses with them, because now they can. We are not talking uniqueness of rangefinder here.

I’m more optimistic than thighslapper about the SL2 because I was specifically told “don’t get the S1R.” Of course, the person was talking his own book. 😂 Two, rumored Q2 to be announced soon with 47 MPx. Let’s see. Three, the article is from last October and the comments on IBIS by Stephan Schulz are “We cannot talk about future products in our strategy [of course, not, SL2 launch still a year away] but you can be sure that we have a close look at in-body image stabilization. So, imagine there would be a Leica SL, just imagine, pure theory [that’s German for ‘we are very excited about it’],...and then you put a Leica M-lens on, and then you have a nice image stabilization.” Stefan Daniel’s comments follow on how the compact SL Summicrons would benefit, implying keep the lenses small, put stabilization in the body. Pretty clear to me. This leaves AF, should be Panasonic’s if Leica pays them enough, and EVF. I’m most hopeful on the last ‘feature.’ 😁

 

 

 

[BernardC]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, I wondered if "surprised" was a language (translation or non-mother tongue) glitch.

Based on the surrounding text, he is saying that Leica finds-out about the product details at the same time as everyone else (or perhaps just before).

They aren't surprised about the sensor details, because Panasonic and Leica buy from the same suppliers. The lead time on sensors is measured in years, it's not like Panasonic can dream-up a sensor in the Fall and have it delivered in time for Christmas.

[LocalHero1953]

19 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Thighslapper’s hunch could very well turn out to be correct. But commercially it would be so myopic if not moronic to strike an alliance with Panasonic in the mirrorless Pro segment and not expect to compete on features like MPx, IBIS, AF. Simply idiotic. As far as ‘Das Wesentliche’ is concerned, screw that if it means technologically inferior mirrorless Pro camera, read B&H listing ‘Discontinued.’ 🤣 Users will bail out and take their SL lenses with them, because now they can. We are not talking uniqueness of rangefinder here.

I’m more optimistic than thighslapper about the SL2 because I was specifically told “don’t get the S1R.” Of course, the person was talking his own book. 😂 Two, rumored Q2 to be announced soon with 47 MPx. Let’s see. Three, the article is from last October and the comments on IBIS by Stephan Schulz are “We cannot talk about future products in our strategy [of course, not, SL2 launch still a year away] but you can be sure that we have a close look at in-body image stabilization. So, imagine there would be a Leica SL, just imagine, pure theory [that’s German for ‘we are very excited about it’],...and then you put a Leica M-lens on, and then you have a nice image stabilization.” Stefan Daniel’s comments follow on how the compact SL Summicrons would benefit, implying keep the lenses small, put stabilization in the body. Pretty clear to me. This leaves AF, should be Panasonic’s if Leica pays them enough, and EVF. I’m most hopeful on the last ‘feature.’ 😁

 

Leica has rarely been technologically superior to other cameras, if by that you mean in technical features. And if the SL2 went down the route of button splatter and complex interfaces, then I would be one of those bailing out - or at least not buying. And we are talking about uniqueness of interface in all Leica bodies, including the SL - it's one of the reasons I use Leicas..

I'm sure we will get more pixels - I'd be surprised if it was less than 47mp - even if I don't want them. I hope it will have IBIS - as long as it not bigger - because I can see that the new Summicrons really benefit from it. A recent afternoon doing headshots, switching between the Apo-Summicron SL 90 and the VE 90-280 at its short end, showed me how much I have relied on OIS to get me a sharp image, even though the Summicron, when sharp, gives a better image.

Edited February 24, 2019 by LocalHero1953

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Chaemono]

Gerade eben schrieb LocalHero1953:

Leica has rarely been technologically superior to other cameras, if by that you mean in technical features.

Oh, please, 2015 SL EVF still state of the art. Sony 2019 EVF just catching up with a few more dots. Yawn.

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Oh, please, 2015 SL EVF still state of the art. Sony 2019 EVF just catching up with a few more dots. Yawn.

You seem intent on taking offense at other opinions.

Sure, Leica has been ahead of the game - you've picked one recent example, and I could add a couple of others (NB, I wrote "rarely"). But it's not been its main selling point. I have no problem with that; as long as the Leica remains the best camera for getting out of the way and allowing me take the photos I want, I'll be happy.

Edited February 24, 2019 by LocalHero1953