M10-D: is “D” for dud dot diode?

[M9reno]

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I agree that in the sublunar world we inhabit nothing, by definition, is perfect. But by that logic, quality control is unnecessary.  A more realistic position is that a basic feature of an electronic camera (in this case its VF exposure display - let’s not forget, a crucial bit of a camera without LCD!) should not come out of the factory in faulty condition. That’s far more obvious than the battery drainage problem you (ramarren) had with MiNT. All it takes is for a Wetzlar technician to switch on the camera and look through the viewfinder to see the problem. In less than ten seconds. It’s not exactly hidden. 

You’re wrong on one point: the funny thing is, I did want this camera, and I wanted it a lot, before this experience  

I agree, in the grand scheme this is a first-world problem. Still, none of it speaks well for Leica. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by M9reno

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[pedaes]

I am sorry to hear you have had this experience, and I think you have the option to try again if time lessens the disappointment. I think it was fairly clear the move from Bruton Place was to catch wealthy Oxford Street tourists, so one would expect the new store to be staffed to suit that market more than ''us". 

Bye the way, thanks for organising this years TLS Exhibition - my prints are on there way.

[ramarren]

Not attacking anyone. I'm just tired of reading people on brand enthusiast lists, like this one, doing nothing but bashing and undermining the brand that they're supposedly enthusiasts of. If you have a problem, get it fixed. If the vendor doesn't take care of you, THEN complain about it. I'd consider that polite and sensible behavior. If expressing my frustration is considered "extreme and aggressive", you don't want to know me when I'm actually angry about anything.  

I've owned perhaps 130 different digital cameras since 2001, eight of them Leica cameras. I make perhaps 30 to 60 thousand exposures per year with whatever current cameras I've got. The only Leica cameras in that mess that have required service were my X2 ... which after two years of constant use had a fault in the four-way controller that Leica USA repaired, free of charge, in three weeks time ... and my M9 in year three of usage ... which had the much groaned over sensor fault that Leica offered to take care of free of charge, or give me market rate to upgrade to the M-P 240 (I took the upgrade; the M240 is a far better performing model). My Nikons went back to Nikon three times each, my Pentaxes twice each, my Sony and Panasonic once each. None of the others ever needed anything. So there's no reliable statistics there that I could use to say that Leica are either less or more liable to require service than any other brand. Two of mine required a minor repair, both of them after having put in a pretty solid service life already. 

I've never "owned vintage cameras" at all. I have been using Leica cameras since 1968, some of them were manufactured as far back as 1947. My film Leicas today include a 1978 M4-2 that gets semi-regular use, a 1968 Leicaflex SL that gets somewhat less use, and a 1991 Leica R6.2 that I acquired recently and is getting a modest amount of use. They're all cameras, not holy objects. All of these old film cameras have needed to be cleaned except the R6.2, it's normal maintenance. The digital models have required no service and had no problems other than what I listed above. It's par for the course.

Why complain about a manufacturing defect when the vendor is going to take care of it for you, and descry the Leica brand as not being reliable when you didn't even give it a chance? 

[ramarren]

3 hours ago, M9reno said:

I agree that in the sublunar world we inhabit nothing, by definition, is perfect. But by that logic, quality control is unnecessary.  A more realistic position is that a basic feature of an electronic camera (in this case its VF exposure display - let’s not forget, a crucial bit of a camera without LCD!) should not come out of the factory in faulty condition. That’s far more obvious than the battery drainage problem you (ramarren) had with MiNT. All it takes is for a Wetzlar technician to switch on the camera and look through the viewfinder to see the problem. In less than ten seconds. It’s not exactly hidden. 

You’re wrong on one point: the funny thing is, I did want this camera, and I wanted it a lot, before this experience  

I agree, in the grand scheme this is a first-world problem. Still, none of it speaks well for Leica. 

Not every "simple obvious problem" will ever be caught by Q&A, regardless of how good the factory Q&A is. It was a simple defect that was not caught. Even Rolls Royce automobiles have that kind of stuff occasionally. Fix it and move on. 

[willeica]

2 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Not attacking anyone. I'm just tired of reading people on brand enthusiast lists, like this one, doing nothing but bashing and undermining the brand that they're supposedly enthusiasts of. If you have a problem, get it fixed. If the vendor doesn't take care of you, THEN complain about it. I'd consider that polite and sensible behavior. If expressing my frustration is considered "extreme and aggressive", you don't want to know me when I'm actually angry about anything.  

I've owned perhaps 130 different digital cameras since 2001, eight of them Leica cameras. I make perhaps 30 to 60 thousand exposures per year with whatever current cameras I've got. The only Leica cameras in that mess that have required service were my X2 ... which after two years of constant use had a fault in the four-way controller that Leica USA repaired, free of charge, in three weeks time ... and my M9 in year three of usage ... which had the much groaned over sensor fault that Leica offered to take care of free of charge, or give me market rate to upgrade to the M-P 240 (I took the upgrade; the M240 is a far better performing model). My Nikons went back to Nikon three times each, my Pentaxes twice each, my Sony and Panasonic once each. None of the others ever needed anything. So there's no reliable statistics there that I could use to say that Leica are either less or more liable to require service than any other brand. Two of mine required a minor repair, both of them after having put in a pretty solid service life already. 

I've never "owned vintage cameras" at all. I have been using Leica cameras since 1968, some of them were manufactured as far back as 1947. My film Leicas today include a 1978 M4-2 that gets semi-regular use, a 1968 Leicaflex SL that gets somewhat less use, and a 1991 Leica R6.2 that I acquired recently and is getting a modest amount of use. They're all cameras, not holy objects. All of these old film cameras have needed to be cleaned except the R6.2, it's normal maintenance. The digital models have required no service and had no problems other than what I listed above. It's par for the course.

Why complain about a manufacturing defect when the vendor is going to take care of it for you, and descry the Leica brand as not being reliable when you didn't even give it a chance? 

M9reno is very familiar with Leicas and is a member of at least 2 Leica societies of which I am a member. If you have followed his posts on this forum, you will see that he has a lot of knowledge about Leicas and is an experienced user of the make, particularly the early models. Your experience with the reliability of digital Leicas v other makes is exactly the opposite to mine, but that is the way of the world. What works for me does not work for you and vice versa. We can only be informed by our own experiences.

We all want to see Leica succeed and I don't see anything that has been posted here as ' bashing and undermining' the brand of Leica. Leica welcomes feedback from users in order to make its brand better. I am sure that there is some 'learning' for Leica in all of this which they would not have received if M9reno had stayed quiet about this. I am aware that the company does monitor the Leica Forum in order to improve its own performance.

William

[M9reno]

Ramarren, I assure you there is no Leica-bashing and undermining intended here. There is, just to be clear, just annoyance on my part regarding one poor experience. None of us really has the statistics to know in reality how good or how poor Leica CQ is. That the company has gotten carried away with boutiques is just a general opinion that many here have expressed over the years, and that I happen to share, but nothing more.  Where I do feel the company fails in cases like this is in not saying “sorry”, which would, as I’m sure you would agree, be the polite and sensible thing.  Avoiding that little word not only sounds arrogant, but makes the little QC fault into something far more annoying and alienating, at least to me.  

I’m sure most people here using digital Leicas are happy enough. I respect and don’t contest the logic behind that. It’s just something that, as this experience has shown, I’ll avoid getting further into. I’ll still keep my M240, by the way (since 2014 only one trip back to Wetzlar for that, for rf re-alignment, so I guess I’m well served with it).

Be well. 

[IkarusJohn]

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Were it me, I’d raise it with Leica (if I felt strongly enough - strongly enough to raise it here, I guess).

[WvE]

11 hours ago, M9reno said:

Ramarren, I assure you there is no Leica-bashing and undermining intended here. There is, just to be clear, just annoyance on my part regarding one poor experience. None of us really has the statistics to know in reality how good or how poor Leica CQ is. That the company has gotten carried away with boutiques is just a general opinion that many here have expressed over the years, and that I happen to share, but nothing more.  Where I do feel the company fails in cases like this is in not saying “sorry”, which would, as I’m sure you would agree, be the polite and sensible thing.  Avoiding that little word not only sounds arrogant, but makes the little QC fault into something far more annoying and alienating, at least to me.  

I’m sure most people here using digital Leicas are happy enough. I respect and don’t contest the logic behind that. It’s just something that, as this experience has shown, I’ll avoid getting further into. I’ll still keep my M240, by the way (since 2014 only one trip back to Wetzlar for that, for rf re-alignment, so I guess I’m well served with it).

Be well. 

I follow M9reno here. As much as we love the brand, we need to stay critical and avoid turning a blind eye just because it is Leica.   

[Stein K S]

Hi

I guess I have had my share of ¨faulty¨ out-of-the box experiences. 3 out of 5 new bodies have had some kind of (minor) deficiency. However, my experience with how things have been fixed makes me still like & trust Leica very much (even if fix is annoying at the time and also time consuming); bodies have immediately been replaced in store if available  or has been prioritized in Wetzlar repair process.

And my experience is that once an M body is ¨run in¨, it will faultlesly  ¨work forever¨. As I tend to stay with my Leica gear long term, this is by far the most important (and enjoyable) element for me!

As a side note; it is also always a pleasure to get lenses back from CLA... in my opinion the Wetzlar handcraft is nothing but amazing  ;-)

[M9reno]

3 hours ago, Stein K S said:

Hi

I guess I have had my share of ¨faulty¨ out-of-the box experiences. 3 out of 5 new bodies have had some kind of (minor) deficiency. However, my experience with how things have been fixed makes me still like & trust Leica very much (even if fix is annoying at the time and also time consuming); bodies have immediately been replaced in store if available  or has been prioritized in Wetzlar repair process.

And my experience is that once an M body is ¨run in¨, it will faultlesly  ¨work forever¨. As I tend to stay with my Leica gear long term, this is by far the most important (and enjoyable) element for me!

As a side note; it is also always a pleasure to get lenses back from CLA... in my opinion the Wetzlar handcraft is nothing but amazing 😉

Stein, Leica is lucky to have customers like you, and maybe even loud-mouths like me, who are in it for the long term.  My point is that they need to watch out.  There comes a point (maybe at 4 out of 6 for you?) where the balance between overall satisfaction and disappointment tips the other way.  I guess that is what happened to me.  And, again, the reaction a customer gets from the other side of the counter, when and if it happens, matters a lot:  I would suggest that unapologetic and nonchalant disbelief is not the optimal response.

As for raising it with Leica, as John suggests - isn’t it the case that they monitor this forum anyway?  My refund is processed, the experience is past, and I’m not after personal “reparation” or vendettas, just making a simple point.  It is after all healthy that there be some critical voices in this forum, and not just a perpetual hallelujah chorus.

Edited February 20, 2019 by M9reno

[Stein K S]

35 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Stein, Leica is lucky to have customers like you, and maybe even loud-mouths like me, who are in it for the long term.  My point is that they need to watch out.  There comes a point (maybe at 4 out of 6 for you?) where the balance between overall satisfaction and disappointment tips the other way.  I guess that is what happened to me.  And, again, the reaction a customer gets from the other side of the counter, when and if it happens, matters a lot:  I would suggest that unapologetic and nonchalant disbelief is not the optimal response.

As for raising it with Leica, as John suggests - isn’t it the case that they monitor this forum anyway?  My refund is processed, the experience is past, and I’m not after personal “reparation” or vendettas, just making a simple point.  It is after all healthy that there be some critical voices in this forum, and not just a perpetual hallelujah chorus.

Hi again

By principle I fully agree! When opening boxes  with new faulty products, I have at those very moments been far more over the top than what you seem now ;-). These occurences have really been totally ¨stupid¨ (read: unneccessary minor faulties).  My comment, though, was an attempt to summarize my ENTIRE Leica experince. Which is still...   very good ;-)

And forums should never be monitored... and there should of course be room for both goods & bads! So keep up... hope you continue to comment in this forum!

[willeica]

9 minutes ago, Stein K S said:

And forums should never be monitored...

They are, of course, as they are in the public domain. A company like Leica would be mad not to monitor what is being said about its products and service on public forums such as this one. There is far more serious monitoring going such as by Google which once again asked me how I enjoyed my local supermarket which I visited yesterday. I suspect that Leica will never get that far, but the phone which was monitored did have a Leica lens!

William

[Stein K S]

42 minutes ago, willeica said:

They are, of course, as they are in the public domain. A company like Leica would be mad not to monitor what is being said about its products and service on public forums such as this one. There is far more serious monitoring going such as by Google which once again asked me how I enjoyed my local supermarket which I visited yesterday. I suspect that Leica will never get that far, but the phone which was monitored did have a Leica lens!

William

Sorry! Some language problems here ;-) It just hit me how my comment could be interpreted... You are so right! Leica and others have to take care and all must be within ¨good will¨, and sound & respectful behaviour. What I ment by my comment is that forums should not be ¨manipulated¨. I hope my good intentions are noted ;-)

[pgk]

I may be wrong but I am sure that I have read that component failure, which is what this sounds like - an led failing to operate correctly - can happen at any time but often happens quite soon if the component is a 'poor' one. It may just be that the component checked out fine in the factory but failed in first usage. I'm sure that some hi-fi manufacturers used to use a 24 hour 'soak' with equipment turned on to check for such problems. Perhaps Leica need to instigate a change in QC procedures to catch early failing components as these will inevitably be the most embarrassing. I suspect that their cameras are probably as reliable as most although accurate statistics about failures are always going to be hard to come by, but given their prices they do need to tighten up on early problems.

[ramarren]

The most significant impact of all the negativity on enthusiast forums is that it predisposes new users to the brand to that negative attitude. Instead of promoting Leica's possibility of success, it tend to reduce sales by introducing doubt and hostility in new users.

Edited February 20, 2019 by ramarren

[scott kirkpatrick]

13 minutes ago, pgk said:

I may be wrong but I am sure that I have read that component failure, which is what this sounds like - an led failing to operate correctly -

i went back 30+ posts and reread M9reno's original complaint.  He does see the central spot, but only in A mode.  So the LED or whatever sort of diode is used is OK, and the problem occurs in some circuit between it and the exposure sensor inside the camera.  This may expose a weakness in the manufacturing final test, and is certainly worth Leica's time to look into.  The camera, when taken out of the box, has its ISO and shutter set on A.

Now we can return to our normal programming, on forum philosophy.

[M9reno]

9 minutes ago, ramarren said:

The most significant impact of all the negativity on enthusiast forums is that it predisposes new users to the brand to that negative attitude. Instead of promoting Leica's possibility of success, it tend to reduce sales by introducing doubt and hostility in new users.

But no member or reader of this forum is a mindless automaton. They can judge for themselves and decide accordingly.  I doubt that any newcomer would find much in this thread to dissuade them decisively from becoming a new user. 

[lucerne]

24 minutes ago, pgk said:

I may be wrong but I am sure that I have read that component failure, which is what this sounds like - an led failing to operate correctly - can happen at any time but often happens quite soon if the component is a 'poor' one. It may just be that the component checked out fine in the factory but failed in first usage. I'm sure that some hi-fi manufacturers used to use a 24 hour 'soak' with equipment turned on to check for such problems. Perhaps Leica need to instigate a change in QC procedures to catch early failing components as these will inevitably be the most embarrassing. I suspect that their cameras are probably as reliable as most although accurate statistics about failures are always going to be hard to come by, but given their prices they do need to tighten up on early problems.

Correct.   The “bathtub failure curve“ effect clearly describes the phenomenon and likelihood of electronic product failure at start of life.   The camera may have been perfect when it was packed, but had an early product failure when next turned on.   Unfortunate but true.   QC can’t catch such events.  Ask any engineer. 

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[M9reno]

12 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

 He does see the central spot, but only in A mode.  So the LED or whatever sort of diode is used is OK, and the problem occurs in some circuit between it and the exposure sensor inside the camera.

The central spot appeared permanently lit between the digits in A mode, as well as when aiming the camera towards very bright light in manual mode. It would flicker and change brightness in the latter case, and a digit segment appeared on its top right.  

[willeica]

26 minutes ago, ramarren said:

The most significant impact of all the negativity on enthusiast forums is that it predisposes new users to the brand to that negative attitude. Instead of promoting Leica's possibility of success, it tend to reduce sales by introducing doubt and hostility in new users.

This cuts both ways and includes negativity towards members who raise issues with Leica cameras. This should be a discussion among mature adults and not like a schoolyard or football terrace 'discussion'. Being a fan or enthusiast for Leica involves looking at a much bigger picture. Unfortunately on this forum and on others the immediate reaction is often to jump on the person who has raised the issues in good faith. Personally I take everybody's comments on their merits. There are no trolls under my bridge.

William