Yet Another 'what might have caused this?' thread

[logan2z]

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I was making a print in my darkroom yesterday when I noticed a subtle dark band across the top.  I took a look at a scan of the negative and noticed the band there as well so this was likely either caused during development or there is an issue with my camera.  I see an even subtler version of this on one other frame on the same roll and I believe I see something similar on a couple of frames from another recent roll I shot.  I have my film developed at a local lab and I suppose this could be a development-related problem, but the fact that I'm seeing this across more than one roll leads me to believe that this may be a shutter-related problem. 

Can anyone hazard a guess as to what is causing this? 

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[Pyrogallol]

Might be a water mark on the negative or something similar from the drying process after development.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Pyrogallol

[logan2z]

10 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

Might be a water mark on the negative or something similar from the drying process after development.

I guess that's a possibility.  I'd be happy if it was simply that and could be rectified by re-washing the film, but the fact that this is showing up across rolls doesn't give me hope.

[adan]

You didn't say which camera but I'll assume Leica-film.

1) not a light leak, as obviously that would produce a bright artifact, not dark.

2) There is a shutter problem that can look similar to this. Crud or dust (or for lighter streaks, a dent) on the metal strips that "cap" the ends of the shutter curtains, especially if a high shutter speed (narrow shutter gap) is used. Such defects effectively change the width of the gap slightly, and thus change the exposure time in a band along their line of travel.

You could inspect those cap-strips on the shutter, by cocking it slowly while looking through both the front and back sequentially, to see if anything seems to be interfering with perfectly sharp straight edges. Additionally, see if you can remember if the affected shots were made at 1/1000th or 1/500th sec.

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However, your line seems slightly wavy and not absolutely straight across, so either the shutter has some other issue, or the crud is moving slightly, or something else is going on. (or - it is straight, and the waviness is just an optical illusion )

3) Pyrogallol's idea of a drying mark makes some sense - but if it was leaving "crud" on the film itself, I'd expect that to leave a shadow on the film, and a light band in a print or scan. Inspecting the film (both sides) with glancing reflected light might reveal a "crust" of something on the shiny film surface.

4) Could be contamination of a roller in the development-step of your lab's machine (if they use a machine). Just a little dot of fixer or stop bath (dried or wet) could interfere with the developer action as the film slides past, leaving a streak. But I would expect that to be continuous across all frames, and not jump from one frame to another. (not impossible, just not expected).

Edited January 15, 2019 by adan

[logan2z]

26 minutes ago, adan said:

You didn't say which camera but I'll assume Leica-film.

1) not a light leak, as obviously that would produce a bright artifact, not dark.

2) There is a shutter problem that can look similar to this. Crud or dust (or for lighter streaks, a dent) on the metal strips that "cap" the ends of the shutter curtains, especially if a high shutter speed (narrow shutter gap) is used. Such defects effectively change the width of the gap slightly, and thus change the exposure time in a band along their line of travel.

You could inspect those cap-strips on the shutter, by cocking it slowly while looking through both the front and back sequentially, to see if anything seems to be interfering with perfectly sharp straight edges. Additionally, see if you can remember if the affected shots were made at 1/1000th or 1/500th sec.

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However, your line seems slightly wavy and not absolutely straight across, so either the shutter has some other issue, or the crud is moving slightly, or something else is going on. (or - it is straight, and the waviness is just an optical illusion )

3) Pyrogallol's idea of a drying mark makes some sense - but if it was leaving "crud" on the film itself, I'd expect that to leave a shadow on the film, and a light band in a print or scan. Inspecting the film (both sides) with glancing reflected light might reveal a "crust" of something on the shiny film surface.

4) Could be contamination of a roller in the development-step of your lab's machine (if they use a machine). Just a little dot of fixer or stop bath (dried or wet) could interfere with the developer action as the film slides past, leaving a streak. But I would expect that to be continuous across all frames, and not jump from one frame to another. (not impossible, just not expected).

Yes, it's a Leica film camera  an M-A.

Great suggestion to look for crud on the shutter curtain.  I will do that and see if I notice anything.  I believe the shot I posted used a shutter speed of 1/500 s. 

I don't really have a way to confirm if the problem occurred at the lab, so if I don't see anything obvious on the shutter curtain I'm not sure where that leaves me.  I guess I'll send up sending the camera to Leica (it's still under warranty) so that they can check it out, but I assume that means several months without it.  Good thing I recently bought an M4 as a backup, I guess  

Appreciate your reply.

[M9reno]

I have seen subtle dark lines like this on my own photos in the past.  They are visible in the sky, but actually on closer inspection can appear anywhere on the negative as *light streaks*.  Because they look like dark streaks on the final printed or scanned image, they are just more easily visible in lighter parts of the picture like the sky.

In my case it was uneven first contact with the developer that was responsible.  I develop inside a rotating drum, and maybe your lab is doing the same.  The mark is the trail left by the developer as it slides down part of the film on first contact with it.

The solution is to wet the film (pre-wash) before development.  You pour water into the drum, and after a few rotations dump the water.  Then you introduce the developer.

The developer then hits the film more evenly and gradually, development is even, and the dark lines are eliminated.

(PS:  You seem to have bright lines as well as dark lines, but my guess is that “light” is just how “un-dark” appears when you are dealing with a number of very subtle dark streaks. It is basically the same problem: uneven development.)

Since you do have your own darkroom, I would encourage you to go the extra step of doing your own film developing.  It is simple, and gives you full control over the process.  If you keep relying on the lab, while expecting perfection, then you can also expect headaches like this to continue!

Good luck!

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by M9reno

[logan2z]

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5 hours ago, M9reno said:

I have seen subtle dark lines like this on my own photos in the past.  They are visible in the sky, but actually on closer inspection can appear anywhere on the negative as *light streaks*.  Because they look like dark streaks on the final printed or scanned image, they are just more easily visible in lighter parts of the picture like the sky.

In my case it was uneven first contact with the developer that was responsible.  I develop inside a rotating drum, and maybe your lab is doing the same.  The mark is the trail left by the developer as it slides down part of the film on first contact with it.

The solution is to wet the film (pre-wash) before development.  You pour water into the drum, and after a few rotations dump the water.  Then you introduce the developer.

The developer then hits the film more evenly and gradually, development is even, and the dark lines are eliminated.

(PS:  You seem to have bright lines as well as dark lines, but my guess is that “light” is just how “un-dark” appears when you are dealing with a number of very subtle dark streaks. It is basically the same problem: uneven development.)

Since you do have your own darkroom, I would encourage you to go the extra step of doing your own film developing.  It is simple, and gives you full control over the process.  If you keep relying on the lab, while expecting perfection, then you can also expect headaches like this to continue!

Good luck!

 

Thanks for your thoughts.  It's subtle, but I see more of a band than a single line, but maybe it's my eyes playing tricks on me. 

I recently switched labs because the previous one kept messing up my film so hoping this isn't a development problem, but it very well could be. 

I keep telling myself that I'm going to start developing my own film, but, given all of the potential pitfalls, have this false sense of security using a professional lab.  But perhaps it's finally time to give it a go. 

[earleygallery]

I was also going to suggest crud or fluff on the edge of a shutter curtain. You can clean it easily (and carefully!). See if that works first as it's the most likely cause.

[M9reno]

1 hour ago, logan2z said:

Thanks for your thoughts.  It's subtle, but I see more of a band than a single line, but maybe it's my eyes playing tricks on me. 

I recently switched labs because the previous one kept messing up my film so hoping this isn't a development problem, but it very well could be. 

I keep telling myself that I'm going to start developing my own film, but, given all of the potential pitfalls, have this false sense of security using a professional lab.  But perhaps it's finally time to give it a go. 

I suggest that you phone and ask your lab whether they develop film inside a rotating drum -  the response will either rule out my hypothesis, or reinforce that it is a development problem.

[logan2z]

19 minutes ago, M9reno said:

I suggest that you phone and ask your lab whether they develop film inside a rotating drum -  the response will either rule out my hypothesis, or reinforce that it is a development problem.

The lab uses dip and dunk processors.

[M9reno]

Oh, well!  🙄

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

I was also going to suggest crud or fluff on the edge of a shutter curtain. You can clean it easily (and carefully!). See if that works first as it's the most likely cause.

Two votes for crud on the shutter curtain so that's worth investigating.  I'll sacrifice the rest of the roll that's currently in the camera and check it out. 

Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to respond.  I'll follow up once I check out the shutter curtains.

[earleygallery]

2 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Two votes for crud on the shutter curtain so that's worth investigating.  I'll sacrifice the rest of the roll that's currently in the camera and check it out. 

Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to respond.  I'll follow up once I check out the shutter curtains.

Sacrifice?

Just note the exposure number, rewind - carefully so you don't wind the leader all the way into the cassette, carefully clean the edges of the shutter curtains and film gate (forgot to mention that) then load the film, advance to where you left off plus a couple of frames for safety - remembering to keep the lens cap on as you wind on and 'shoot' the already exposed frames!

When you get the film processed it should then reveal if the problem's solved.

[logan2z]

26 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Sacrifice?

Just note the exposure number, rewind - carefully so you don't wind the leader all the way into the cassette, carefully clean the edges of the shutter curtains and film gate (forgot to mention that) then load the film, advance to where you left off plus a couple of frames for safety - remembering to keep the lens cap on as you wind on and 'shoot' the already exposed frames!

When you get the film processed it should then reveal if the problem's solved.

Right, I could do that to save the remaining film if there's more than a few frames left.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[andybarton]

Don't be worried about processing your own film.

 

It's very easy and doesn't require a huge capital outlay.

[logan2z]

4 hours ago, andybarton said:

Don't be worried about processing your own film.

 

It's very easy and doesn't require a huge capital outlay.

I actually purchased everything I need a while back - Hewes reels, Kindermann tanks, etc. etc.  But every time I'm about to give it a shot I read some thread on a forum in which someone is wondering what went wrong while they developed their own film.   It turns out they either under-agitated, over-agitated, created surge marks, ended up with uneven development or some other fatal flaw   That and the fact that it seems to be the least interesting/creative part of the photographic process has led me to farm out my film development to a local lab.  All that said, I would love to do my own development mostly because the lab(s) I've been using are quite a drive from my house.  I keep telling myself this, but I will bite the bullet soon and just do it.

[earleygallery]

You'd be amazed how many people can't fry an egg.

Just give it a go, shoot a roll of test images so if you do XXXX it up, it won't matter.

[pico]

4 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I actually purchased everything I need a while back - Hewes reels, Kindermann tanks, etc. etc.  But every time I'm about to give it a shot I read some thread on a forum in which someone is wondering what went wrong while they developed their own film.   It turns out they either under-agitated, over-agitated, created surge marks, ended up with uneven development or some other fatal flaw   That and the fact that it seems to be the least interesting/creative part of the photographic process has led me to farm out my film development to a local lab.  All that said, I would love to do my own development mostly because the lab(s) I've been using are quite a drive from my house.  I keep telling myself this, but I will bite the bullet soon and just do it.

 

5 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I actually purchased everything I need a while back - Hewes reels, Kindermann tanks, etc. etc.

Just my small observation after processing 35mm for almost 40 years. Use stainless steel reels, always use the tank to its film capacity (IOW don't process one reel in a two reel tank) and leave a bubble above the filler neck; that bubble is your agitation mechanism, and finally if you can, then settle upon a developer with more time required. Greater time smooths out variations in agitation over time.

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[logan2z]

9 hours ago, pico said:

 

Just my small observation after processing 35mm for almost 40 years. Use stainless steel reels, always use the tank to its film capacity (IOW don't process one reel in a two reel tank) and leave a bubble above the filler neck; that bubble is your agitation mechanism, and finally if you can, then settle upon a developer with more time required. Greater time smooths out variations in agitation over time.

Thanks for the advice.  I'll follow it when I start to home develop.

[M9reno]

10 hours ago, logan2z said:

I actually purchased everything I need a while back - Hewes reels, Kindermann tanks, etc. etc.  But every time I'm about to give it a shot I read some thread on a forum in which someone is wondering what went wrong while they developed their own film.   It turns out they either under-agitated, over-agitated, created surge marks, ended up with uneven development or some other fatal flaw   That and the fact that it seems to be the least interesting/creative part of the photographic process has led me to farm out my film development to a local lab.  All that said, I would love to do my own development mostly because the lab(s) I've been using are quite a drive from my house.  I keep telling myself this, but I will bite the bullet soon and just do it.

Yes, you will likely encounter issues at first, but once you get it perfect and make that a routine, there’s nothing better, and no going back!

There’s nothing worse than having your film ruined at a lab, whether it’s through old chemicals, scratches, careless cutting of the negs, one of the staff having a bad day, etc, etc.  The ball in my stomach I felt every time I came back from a long trip abroad and threw precious rolls of film into a mailbox...