Leicaflex II Black Paint

[Ivar B]

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I am winding down my collection (unfortunately) and in it I have a Leicaflex II (With the circled counter) in Black Paint. I have searched the web and the only listing I could find was one by Meister in Hamburg - who has one for sale (With 2/50) for 2850 Euro. I know that nobody wants the SL or SL2, but the Leicaflex Pre SL in Black Paint is much rarer (R8) and perhaps worth a little more. Has anyone seen any for sale or sold lately?

[gbealnz]

I saw the Meister Camera one you mention Ivar, and looked long and hard at it, but then decided I'd want to use it and at that sort of money I'd be too scared, LOL.

Gary

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[jc_braconi]

for illustration

 

 

 

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[Ivar B]

16 minutes ago, jc_braconi said:

for illustration

 

 

 

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Exactly. Yours seem to be in extraordinary good condition.

 

[luigi bertolotti]

Some black (Mark 1 & 2)   on display at Kevincameras, too : http://www.kevincameras.com/

While the chromes are abundant and some very "cheap"

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

2 hours ago, Ivar B said:

Exactly. Yours seem to be in extraordinary good condition.

 

Hello Ivar,

If you look at Jean Claude's photos over time: It would appear that pretty much of everything  that he has photos of is in "extraordinary good condition".

Best Regards,

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Again Ivar,

And if that Leicaflex II has a serial number that is 10 * * * * *

Then that camera might have been delivered to the original customer with that lens.

Best Regards,

Michael

[alan mcfall]

Here are my black Leicaflex standard cameras. Two from the first batch 1084xxx (pie)and four from the second batch 1168xxx(round).  The chrome lenses are a Summicron and a 35mm Elmarit; I have never seen any confirmation that there is any connection between the chrome reflex lenses and the black paint standard reflex cameras.  I suspose that a customer could have requested this for delivery, if he/she  knew the chrome lenses existed.The chrome reflex cameras were before the black  paint ones were available.  The black cameras are in the catalogs(#10002), the chrome lenses are not. The number of black paint standard reflex cameras has been quoted as 255 by several authors, my serial number studies suggest this number is low. I have 70 listed in my database. Maybe factory records could produce the true number.  The chrome lenses are all from early serial lots, 1940xxx, 1972xxx, 1999xxx and so on.  I have 50 chrome reflex lenses in my database.So my guess is the chrome lenses were distributed or maybe held back, before the black paint standards were available. Again, any factory records for the chrome reflex lenses were be most interesting.  Over 37000 Standard reflexes were made so black is certainly not common.

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Edited January 11, 2019 by alan mcfall
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[willeica]

FYI http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leicaflex-black.html

Bear in mind that auction prices are usually slightly higher because of competitive bidding.

William

[Rennrocky]

Here are my black paint Leicaflexs. The Leicaflex Mark II has the serialnumber 1168815 

A question to alan mcfal: Do you think that it is truth that only  255 black cameras are made ? MK I and MK II together ?

 

 

 

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Edited January 11, 2019 by Rennrocky

[jc_braconi]

Ha ha I dont include SL and SL MOT

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Alan,

You actually have 1 more chrome 50mm Summicron for your data base here in this Thread.

Jean Claude's lens appears to be  number 2003287. That would make it from a production batch from numbers assigned in 1963.

Which would put it in that group of lenses which manufactured that could be used with the second production batch of Leicaflex models in 1965. This second batch of Leicaflex cameras in from 1965 includes Black Leicaflex II cameras. According to the Wiki at the top of this page.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited January 11, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

16 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Again Ivar,

And if that Leicaflex II has a serial number that is 10 * * * * *

Then that camera might have been delivered to the original customer with that lens.

Best Regards,

Michael

Hello Again Ivar,

I have to correct an error in my Post #7, just above, which I have quoted here:

10*****

Should read:

111****

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited January 11, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[luigi bertolotti]

(curiosity from a no-expert of R cameras… ) : do I see wrong (Alan's picture) or the Mark 1 and Mark 2 have a slight difference also in  times' dial knob ?  (dimension ? position ?)

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by luigi bertolotti

[alan mcfall]

The shutter speed dial diameters are equal at 26.1mm.  The thickness (heigth) seems to vary from 4.4 to 4.9mm and yes the "Pie" shaped  black one is one of the thinner ones, but I measured some very early chrome  cameras and they were 4.9. So, it is not a case of early  production vs. late that were made thicker. Only the pie shaped black cameras seem to be .5mm thinner. I could just be tolerance variation, maybe other pie black standard owners can report the thickness of there dials.  I don't think I have enough data to claim a variation, but with great certainty, Luigi has amazing sharp eyes. Note: the SL2 camera speed dial is a whopping 28mm, you can even feel the overhang at the front of the camera.  In my mind, Leitz made frequent changes in camera and lens ergonomics; a customer requested, or engineers sat arround a table and said how can we made improvements.  And then  they issued a change order to production.  This is a common practice, at least before Demming!

The other major difference in the pie vs. round counter cameras, is of course,the tripod mount in the baseplate. With the early cameras having a multipart assembly. Now, I have an interesting reflex camera, black serial #1084174 that is clearly from the early pie lot, but it has a round counter. It has also an early multipart tripod socket.  My guess, it was returned for a new top to replace a damaged one and there were no more pie plates arround.  Just the many variations of Leitz.

Yes, Micheal, I have recorded several chrome summicron lenses in the 2003xxx lot, but none in lots after that.  So, for the summicron we have chrome cameras in lots, 1949xxx, 1999,xxx, 2000,xxx and finally 2003,xxx.  For the 35 Elmarit we have chrome lenses in lots 1972,xxx, and 1995,xxx.  I do not believe we should think all these lots strictly occured in order.  In fact, Lager shows prototype chrome summicron reflex lenses from the second 2000,xxx lot. Just on random sampling, I would believe the 35 Elmarit is harder to find than the Summicron.  I have never seen a chrome lens reflex cap, so it seems the chrome lenses used the standard black lens hood and cap.

As to the question, how many black paint reflex standards were made, we need someone to take a close look at any available factory records.  It is likely they were produced in somewhat selective fashion, certainly not in lengthy continuous batches.  They all do occur in two groups:  1084001 to 1084500 and the later round counter units from 1168501 to 1169000.  Thats a 1000 cameras total if you think there were no chrome production within these ranges.  In all my recording I have not see a chrome one in these two batches of 500. But my observations would be biased as people tend to report rare cameras (black)more often than common(chrome) ones. I have only recorded 70 black paint reflex standards; as there was no "war loss" and not many should have been otherwise destroyed, one might expect to see more if 1000 had been made.  So, I am staying with 255 to 500 until better data comes up.

The issue of the black paint SL (Selective Light) and SL Mot cameras will be addressed in a susequent post.  Regards

[gbealnz]

Look forward to your next instalment Alan, I have a black paint SL, love it. I'd love the standard as well, but it's a matter of economics.

Gary

 

[Ivar B]

Here is mine - looks very nice as well. Many thanks for all for your comments. Much appreciated. I may put mine on eBay or something.

 

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[jpattison]

On 1/11/2019 at 3:36 AM, alan mcfall said:

Here are my black Leicaflex standard cameras. Two from the first batch 1084xxx (pie)and four from the second batch 1168xxx(round).  The chrome lenses are a Summicron and a 35mm Elmarit; I have never seen any confirmation that there is any connection between the chrome reflex lenses and the black paint standard reflex cameras.  I suspose that a customer could have requested this for delivery, if he/she  knew the chrome lenses existed.The chrome reflex cameras were before the black  paint ones were available.  The black cameras are in the catalogs(#10002), the chrome lenses are not. The number of black paint standard reflex cameras has been quoted as 255 by several authors, my serial number studies suggest this number is low. I have 70 listed in my database. Maybe factory records could produce the true number.  The chrome lenses are all from early serial lots, 1940xxx, 1972xxx, 1999xxx and so on.  I have 50 chrome reflex lenses in my database.So my guess is the chrome lenses were distributed or maybe held back, before the black paint standards were available. Again, any factory records for the chrome reflex lenses were be most interesting.  Over 37000 Standard reflexes were made so black is certainly not common. 

I believe the Chrome lenses were pulled, or quickly replaced with Black versions, as the reflectance off the chrome affected the (over the lens) meter.

John

[Ivar B]

I have an offer on eBay for $1500 - still considering what to do. Perhaps it is not too bad.

 

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[jpattison]

On 1/10/2019 at 9:03 PM, Ivar B said:

I know that nobody wants the SL2, 

What?

The best 35mm camera ever made?

J