Flare?

[Mark II]

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Hi folks...

I am getting quite a few images with obtrusive flare, such as the image below. This typically happens in low sunlight when you might expect there to be some lens flare, but the pattern seen is very strange and for some reason it only ever affects the lower right quadrant, rotating with the camera for portrait shots. Does anyone know if this is indeed plain and simple lens flare, or if it is maybe something else such as an internal reflection, a light-leak, or light ingress when handling the film? I have manually checked the camera for possible light leaks, but I can not see anything.

The camera is an M7, and the flare is most obvious with a wide-angle lens such as the 28mm Summicron - but it is also seen to a lesser extent even with a 50mm C-Sonnar.

Thanks!

-- Mark

 

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[Mark II]

Here is another example, this time with the 35mm Summilux on the M7. The sun is off to the left of the image.

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[spydrxx]

Using fresh film I'd try a controlled test..using both "offending" lenses with the camera mounted on a tripod, shooting in a way you might expect to experience lens flare. Then without removing the camera from the tripod I'd repeat the shots with a black cloth draped over the camera with the ends rubber banded around the lens so only it is exposed to light. You'll know whether there is a light leak via this method and also whether it is a lens specific issue. Just looking at the picture you supplied, it looks like a light leak in the upper left hand corner of the camera. There shouldn't be any internal reflections in the camera body, unless perhaps the lens mounting flange on the camera body is loose and as far as something occuring re handling the film, the flare wouldn't be the same in the same location on each frame of film. Good luck in finding the source of the problem.

[Mark II]

It seems to be very sensitive to position, so it is quite difficult to predict when it will strike. I have tried to check for light-leaks around both the lens mount and the finder using a bright point light and I could not see any obvious leak - although I suppose it could be weak enough that the flare is the result of walking around with the the camera rather than when taking a shot.

One of the curtains does have a patched burn-hole, but as far as I can test the patch is completely light-tight.

[Michael Hiles]

Some years ago I had a similar problem with my venerable and beloved M2. The problem was a light leak, I believe coming from the rewind lever. Kinderman in Toronto fixed it for me.

You pictures/problems do not look to me like lens flare - more like a light leak.

[adan]

Some points:

1) it is absolutely possible to get internal reflections in an M camera body. The image circle of a lens spills outside the rectangle of the shutter/film area substantially, unless one uses a very-tightly cropping rectangular lens hood, like they use in Hollywood. However - the results usually don't look like this pattern.

2) And, the pattern does look like a leak, and not flare of any kind.

3) The effect of a light-leak is cumulative over time, so a leak completely invisible to the eye can eventually, over minutes or hours, add up to a visible mark on the film. Therefore I would not rule out the patch on the shutter curtain. A test would be the location of the patch. Since the flare is roughly in the bottom-right of the pictures, if the patch is in the top-right of the curtain (as seen from the camera front), it is a suspect.

Like Michael, I had an M4-2 that leaked light around the "R"-lever on the front, fogging pictures after they had been taken, and advanced one frame over towards the takeup spool, and sat there for a few minutes/hours before the next shoot-and-advance cycle moved them onto the spool itself. The "timing" of the fog - it was always on the last picture I had taken and wound before a pause in shooting - helped me track down the source.

[Mark II]

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The patch is on the lower left of the curtain, so I think that it is unlikely and the cause. I will check the rewind lever when the current film is complete. Whatever it is, it is now affecting even images shot at night.

The M7 is one of the first production batches and has as far as I know never been serviced. Maybe it is time to get it properly overhauled to replace the shutter curtain and check the seals (and also clear out the fluff from the viewfinder). I have been avoiding this for some time, not least because the time in Wetzlar means that I will need to first find a backup body to cover shooting while it is away.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Mark II

[Michael Hiles]

My comments were not intended to specifically indict the rewind lever – but lens flare sound very suspicious based on the frames above. I would start by chasing some kind of light leak. 

[Ko.Fe.]

4 hours ago, Mark II said:

The patch is on the lower left of the curtain

Do you know then you look at scans it is actually reversed on the negative?

The patch is on the lower left. It could be some blast from this patch.

Any way. If you want to know where light leak is, do not look at scans, look at the negative. Entire negative. 

And get it fixed. Patches are not for Leica curtains. 

[250swb]

13 hours ago, Mark II said:

The patch is on the lower left of the curtain, so I think that it is unlikely and the cause.

The lens projects the image onto the film back-to-front and upside down in the camera.

So I think you are mistakenly thinking the light is flare and coming from above in the scene because that is how the end print is orientated. As Adan has said, it does look like a leak and from the position of the artifact it is from the upper part of the camera or shutter curtain.

[Mark II]

Thanks for the many suggestions. The position does not match the patch on the curtain, so I think it is unlikely a cause. From the frames, it is most likely to be something around the viewfinder, top-plate controls or the seals around the rear film plate. But I can not see any leak when looking with the camera open.

I have shot some test images with the lens cap on and an extremely bright point light directed at various points on the body. Hopefully this when developed might give some clue as to the problem...

[Ko.Fe.]

Take bright and compact flash light. Go into completely dark place. Use your hand to isolate light leaks from the flash light.

It should only comes to the camera.

Put light to the lens mount and observe both curtains from the back of the camera. Light should only comes to the lens mount.

Look at curtains from different angles.

Including looking between curtains and where they are touching main light baffle (at the edge of the film, camera frame.  Many used M cameras will show light leaks where. But often it is not too critical.

Then put light into VF and inspect if any light comes from behind where film is. Again, use hand to make sure light is only getting into VF.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Ko.Fe.

[Mark II]

I shot a set of frames with the lens cap on and a very bright light shining in to various locations around the viewfinder, film rewind, rear plate etc. All were completely clean. However, I also took one blank frame after the camera had been left for a day in weak daylight without a lens cap fitted (general room light). Heavily contrast stretched, you can see a clear leak (see image).

I suspect that this is the burn patch failing, as the sharp line looks very much like the burn (see second image). But surely the rotation is wrong - flipped only vertically rather than being rotated 180 degrees? The other thing that is odd is that the leak is very variable even under similar shooting conditions - some films are completely unaffected, yet others loose multiple shots. FWIW, no amount of careful manual inspection with bright lights shows any leak at all.

BTW, the correlation with lenses was false. It turns out - for reasons that are not entirely clear - that I seem to preferentially use wider-angle lenses in bright daylight, and 50mm mainly at night. Correlation does not imply causation!

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Edited December 16, 2018 by Mark II

[schattenundlicht]

The shutter needs a replacement by a skilled technician anyway, so what to wait for? In combination with a proper CLA, which any respectable M deserves from time to time, the service technician could check all light seals etc. 

Although troubleshooting can be fun detective work and a stimulating intellectual excersice, the sooner you turn in your camera, the sooner you will have it back. Just remember to send in one or two sample negatives with the camera for the tech to have a look at, to corroborate that the „correct“ problem is being solved.

Of course, that’s only how I personally would proceed.

Btw a pinhole in the shutter will effect images not depending on shooting conditions, but depending on carrying conditions (i.e. for how long and in what kind of light you carry the camera with the lens cap off)

Good luck!

Edited December 20, 2018 by schattenundlicht
iPhoe typo😬

[Mark II]

What to wait for is that the camera is still in daily use! I have a long term (18+ months) project that is still ongoing and where I sometimes need to shoot at short notice. I took five rolls on Friday, carefully capping or covering the lens with my hand between shots, and they seem to have been successful with no affected images.

The difficulty is that I can barely justify the cost of the overhaul, let alone a second M7 to cover the two to three months that the service will likely require. Leica itself did not think it worthwhile to invest the fairly minimal engineering needed to keep a modern M7 version in production, so no matter how much I like the camera, it is very hard to commit scarce resource into a platform that will be increasingly difficult to maintain..