new vs old sensor image rendering different

[ngjeremy]

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Hi there been trying to search for this answer couldn't find other people having this problem. My M9P was replaced sensor 3 times (first with the original sensor, 2nd and 3rd time was new generation sensor). Long story short there was some issue in between hence the 3 times, anyway. When I had the first replacement (original sensor prone to corrosion) I found the images were still rendering that 3D look specially on round items and people's head/faces. 

When I had the 2nd and 3rd replacement, it sort of lost that look. Now I'm not sure if it was the way lightroom camera raw processed it or not but I just cant seem to get that original sensor rendering. Does anyone have this experience or is it to do with my raw software? I was using a different macbook during these sensor transitions. also using standalone lightroom

I have calibrated screen and all, but my issue here is not the colour profiles, but the way an image renders. I'm comparing the image taken from same lens and similar settings and lighting tho not controlled. The old sensor did not need any post process much most times I just have exposure adjusted. The new sensor dng files seem...flat, specially in low light. I feel that I have an entire different camera. previously I was able to shoot 800-1000 iso low light at f2 etc and the files look sharp and colours look vivid and no post process needed usually. 

uploaded some sample photo taken of old sensor and new. unedited raw.

current firmware is 1.216. 

lens used in the sample Summilux 35mm ASPH FLE.

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[ngjeremy]

some more, apologies if the image is unclear, not sure what compression the forum allows

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[AceVentura1986]

Can’t say that I’ve experienced this. My ME’s rendering with the new sensor appears identical to the old sensor. Maybe it’s me, tho, since I mostly use the Mono. Still, I can’t tell the difference. 

[low325]

This one is really hard to distinguish if there are differences in the rendering of new and original sensors. 

Back to back a/b tests would have to be done against the exact same image with the same lighting, lenses, etc

[Ko.Fe.]

First photo is kind of green. Looks like WB issue. Exposure metering and white balance are not M9 series strong features, IMO.

Second photo is having heavy pixelation in LBC and at the opposite.  Looks like very bad processing.

Both images shows what here is something else involved, but not sensor.

 

I have no noticable difference between 2015 sensor and 2018 sensor in my M-E.  I process my M-E images in old standalone LR.

[Jean-Michel]

Leica replaced the sensor of my M9 twice, first time with an 'old' sensor and later with the 'new' one. I do not see any differences in the 'look' of image made by any of thees sensors. Using a newer process in LR may extract more information from earlier files, but that's about it. 

[ngjeremy]

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those 2 images are from the original sensor. its unedited raw straight convert jpg. im trying to figure out the correct size for uploading here. sorry if the images look horrible but they look fine on my screen, i had issue uploading images yesterday

the one below is from new sensor, unedited exposure adjusted slightly.

not sure if u guys see the diffrence that i see

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[jaapv]

I think you need to get your post-processing workflow colour-managed and calibrated to begin with. These images are all over the place. There is absolutely nothing to say about the sensor rendering based on this.

[ngjeremy]

I'm trying to upload another photo of the above with the yellow car and its saying i am only allowed 500kb when the file is only 340kb. its quite hard to explain what i am seeing without the photo

[ngjeremy]

32 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I think you need to get your post-processing workflow colour-managed and calibrated to begin with. These images are all over the place. There is absolutely nothing to say about the sensor rendering based on this.

thanks i've got my monitor calibrated by spyder but the files are taken on auto wb and "A" mode and no pp done. I've actually converted to BW just to have a look and it looks like the way the default colour profile of old sensor has an affect on how the eye perceives it. Its not accurate colour but it does look "dreamy" even at low F stops.

I'll try and shoot more and compare BW images. ive posted 3 BW dng convert to jpg no adjustment from old sensor.

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[ngjeremy]

new sensor, bw dng to jpg no adjustment

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[david strachan]

Hello Jeremy

I wouldn't get too hung up on past vs new sensor.

 

You've got a sensor so make it work.  Nothing wrong with editing...sometimes straight jpg's work...often not.

 

For B&W one needs sooty blacks...where they should be, and paper whites...where they should be.  Use the LR sliders for exposure, shadows and highlights...they work very well.

 

Main thing is...a grey B&W looks unattractive.  So do over contrasty images IMO.

 

All best...

Edited December 9, 2018 by david strachan
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[ngjeremy]

4 hours ago, david strachan said:

Hello Jeremy

I wouldn't get too hung up on past vs new sensor.

 

You've got a sensor so make it work.  Nothing wrong with editing...sometimes straight jpg's work...often not.

 

For B&W one needs sooty blacks...where they should be, and paper whites...where they should be.  Use the LR sliders for exposure, shadows and highlights...they work very well.

 

Main thing is...a grey B&W looks unattractive.  So do over contrasty images IMO.

 

All best...

hi david thank u for your advice.

 

[jaapv]

7 hours ago, ngjeremy said:

thanks i've got my monitor calibrated by spyder but the files are taken on auto wb and "A" mode and no pp done. I've actually converted to BW just to have a look and it looks like the way the default colour profile of old sensor has an affect on how the eye perceives it. Its not accurate colour but it does look "dreamy" even at low F stops.

I'll try and shoot more and compare BW images. ive posted 3 BW dng convert to jpg no adjustment from old sensor.

That is just the point: "no PP done" . That could only work if you were able to make 1:1 comparisons between the old and new sensor of the same subject, using the same lens under the same controlled light.

Colour or B&W conversions will not make a difference either, B&W conversions are made by the software balancing the colour channels and are basically colour images..

The only difference between the old sensor and the new sensor is the IR filter glass, nothing else. That could make a minimal difference in the colour rendering of the camera for postprocessing purposes. Leica tweaked the firmware to compensate for this.

The only effect that could have is that the user -you-  might want to adjust his postprocessing. It might be that the camera profile of Lightroom produces a slightly different colour rendering for the unedited image - correcting it is not that difficult.

The way to go for you is to take one perfectly exposed image of an average subject, and develop that to your taste in Lightroom. Then save the settings as a default. That way you will have regained your preferred starting point.

The more controlled way to go about this is, of course, to make your own camera profile. If you have done so for the old sensor, you can even tweak the new profile to match the old one precisely.

 

It all comes down to looking to the sensor for a postprocessing problem.

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, ngjeremy said:

those 2 images are from the original sensor. its unedited raw straight convert jpg. im trying to figure out the correct size for uploading here. sorry if the images look horrible but they look fine on my screen, i had issue uploading images yesterday

the one below is from new sensor, unedited exposure adjusted slightly.

not sure if u guys see the diffrence that i see

For instance, the only thing I did here was open your image in ACR (which Lightroom uses as well) and hit "Auto" on both the colour balance and development. And this is just a small JPEG with virtually no data. I you were to process the DNG properly, the difference would be stunning.

 

 

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[ngjeremy]

thanks for all the comments, i'll try getting the colour profiles.

i've never adjusted any colour profiles previously, its just the adobe ones.

hopefully thats the difference i'm seeing.

noted on IR filter, does this make images look less/more sharp?

[low325]

 Don’t know if it’s just the compression of the board or what but it looks as if the photos are just not in focus?

im looking st these images on my iPad.  Maybe rangefinder focus got bumped off?  

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, ngjeremy said:

thanks for all the comments, i'll try getting the colour profiles.

i've never adjusted any colour profiles previously, its just the adobe ones.

hopefully thats the difference i'm seeing.

noted on IR filter, does this make images look less/more sharp?

No it does not. The softness of your images is something else you need to look into. I don't think it is a focus issue. It might be simple web compression.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ko.Fe.]

I don't see any cast in provided image. White cable isn't white, but it is how it comes most of the time without custom wb enabled. 

[Ko.Fe.]

Weird, but I have same kind of feeling now. I don'r like outdoors colors with new one and I can't get same indoor portraits rendering as it was with old one. Same lens, same settings.