Roland Zwiers Posted August 6, 2023 Share #21  Posted August 6, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Pyrogallol, I have a Leica IIIb that must have been converted to a Leica IIIf. Nr. 334154 It has a ring with black engravings for flash synchronisation. And a flash contact on the back below the accessory shoe. When testing flash synchronisation I find that value 4 may provide the most consistent results at 1/20 sec. I still have to test the shutter speeds of 1/30 and 1/40 sec. The Kisselbach manuals give information on the IIIf models, but I am not sure if this also applies to a IIIb converted to a IIIf. Roland  1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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jerzy Posted August 8, 2023 Share #22  Posted August 8, 2023 Am 6.8.2023 um 19:34 schrieb Roland Zwiers: I have a Leica IIIb that must have been converted to a Leica IIIf. Nr. 334154 according to Hahne 334154 was model III (not IIIb). Upgrade path IIIb ->IIIb syn was mentioned in one of Leica publications but I have seen only one sample of such conversion and it was Betriebskamera 385. There are hughe constructional differences between IIIb and IIIf that make "regular" conversion impossible. Would you post some photos? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 8, 2023 Share #23  Posted August 8, 2023 (edited) In the newsletter for Leica dealers "Leitz Informationen für den Photofachhandel" Nr. 14 from 1954 (p. 8 ) I find the following statement (my own translation): "All models of the Leica can be provided retroactively with full synchronisation for electronic and vacuum flashes. (Model I and Standard only after they have been converted to a Model II or Model IIIa). For cameras of the IIIb series these works unfortunately are not possible out of technical reasons for the time being". Adding "for the time being" they obviously hinted at the fact that they were trying to find a solution, which explains the "Betriebscamera 385". In Nr. 15 of the "Leitz Informationen..." from 1956 (p.4)there is a further entry: "Sychronisation of the Leica models IIIb Adding full synchronisation to the rather small numbers of Leica IIIb models which are still on the market unfortunately cannot be expected." So they either gave up to look for a technical solution or even if the found one they came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be economically sustainable.  Edited August 8, 2023 by UliWer 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 15, 2023 Share #24  Posted August 15, 2023 On 8/8/2023 at 6:04 AM, jerzy said: according to Hahne 334154 was model III (not IIIb). Upgrade path IIIb ->IIIb syn was mentioned in one of Leica publications but I have seen only one sample of such conversion and it was Betriebskamera 385. There are hughe constructional differences between IIIb and IIIf that make "regular" conversion impossible. Would you post some photos? Jerzy and Uliwer, This is very interesting! I assumed Nr. 334154 was already a IIIb, not the earlier III. But I am not an expert on this period. Yes I will gladly make some pictures of Nr. 334154. Then we can discuss this issue further with empirical evidence in our hands. When the number of IIIb cameras have been relatively small, when in addition the conversion of a IIIb into a IIIf was relatively expensive (but why was this so?). then this could explain why Leitz at first considered this service but later changed its mind.  Roland   Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 15, 2023 Share #25  Posted August 15, 2023 Jerzy and Uliwer, I just checked van Hasbroeck (1987), German edition. He indeed specifies Nr. 334154 as a Leica III. It is part of a batch of 200 cameras (334001-334200) that was produced in 1939. Roland   Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted August 15, 2023 Share #26  Posted August 15, 2023 Roland, so what is it what you have IIIa syn or IIIb syn? Post a photo pls. Upgrade from III to IIIa (adding 1/1000) on camera with such hugh serial number requires replacement of 2-3 parts and takes 15-20 minutes. Could have been done by any repair shop. Conversion III to IIIb is a different story, requires much more activities including disassembly of the whole camera, new holes need to be drilled on top plate. And upgrade III into IIIb syn, while commercially never implemented, could have been done by employee or someone else who had access to special parts (top cover, never released commercialy). So if it is really IIIb syn what you have it is a very unique camera - post a photo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 15, 2023 Share #27  Posted August 15, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Jerzy, Here you are. Please tell me what you think. Roland Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/290185-leica-conversions-who-has-one/?do=findComment&comment=4836033'>More sharing options...
jerzy Posted August 15, 2023 Share #28 Â Posted August 15, 2023 This is IIIa syn, regular conversion. IIIb has both eyelets close together and diopter lever under the rewind knob Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 15, 2023 Share #29  Posted August 15, 2023 Jerzy, Thank you so much. But to this layman you speak in code language 🙂 Do you mean a Leica IIIa converted to a Leica IIIf as far as flash synchronisation is concerned? If so, then Van Hasbroeck (1987) is wrong, as he specifies this camera Nr. 334154 as a Leica III. Or do you mean a Leica III converted to a Leica IIIa with the flash synchronisation of the IIIf? Roland   Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted August 15, 2023 Share #30  Posted August 15, 2023  vor 1 Stunde schrieb Roland Zwiers: Do you mean a Leica IIIa converted to a Leica IIIf as far as flash synchronisation is concerned? No, it is not IIIf. IIIf is a different camera, it is IIIa syn and this means IIIa with flash sync.   vor 1 Stunde schrieb Roland Zwiers: If so, then Van Hasbroeck (1987) is wrong, as he specifies this camera Nr. 334154 as a Leica III. No, Hasbroek and Hahne are correct. Their lists are based on delivery records and camera with this serial number left the factory as III. Sometime between 1951 and 1954 (most probably) camera was modified in the factory and received 1/1000 (and thus became IIIa) and received flash sync. IIIa syn. Because this was originally rather late III there were not too many modifications needed, most spectacular is the top cover, notice raised accessory shoe. Different story was when for ex IA was upgraded to IIIa syn - owner received completly new camera, with (in most cases) not a single part that belonged to original IA. Original serial number was retained. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 16, 2023 Share #31  Posted August 16, 2023 Jerzy, Thank you, this is very interesting. So the route is regular III to IIIa and then to IIIa with flash synchronisation. Now the Kisselbach books give tables what flash sybchronisation value to use for flash bulbs and electronic flash at different shutter speeds. But only for the Leica IIIf. I do not see separate tables for the Leica IIIa with flash synchronisation. So I assumed the Leica IIIa with flash synchronisation would have the same flash specifications as the Leica IIIf. But now I am empirically testing this, first at 1/20 sec, there seem to be differences. Would the owner of Leica IIIa with flash synchronisation get an additional manual for how to use the flash values? Or would he or she be told to follow the IIIf instructions? Roland  Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 16, 2023 Share #32  Posted August 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Roland Zwiers said: Jerzy, Thank you, this is very interesting. So the route is regular III to IIIa and then to IIIa with flash synchronisation. Now the Kisselbach books give tables what flash sybchronisation value to use for flash bulbs and electronic flash at different shutter speeds. But only for the Leica IIIf. I do not see separate tables for the Leica IIIa with flash synchronisation. So I assumed the Leica IIIa with flash synchronisation would have the same flash specifications as the Leica IIIf. But now I am empirically testing this, first at 1/20 sec, there seem to be differences. Would the owner of Leica IIIa with flash synchronisation get an additional manual for how to use the flash values? Or would he or she be told to follow the IIIf instructions? Roland  The IIIa will probably have a ‘black dial’ sync scale because it will have the earlier shutter. The later red dial shutter had different shutter speed settings. The IIIa will also have had a sync conversion has it was not available with sync when sold. There are tables for sync with Black Dial and Red Dial shutters which I can email to you, Roland. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted August 16, 2023 Share #33  Posted August 16, 2023 vor 6 Stunden schrieb willeica: There are tables for sync with Black Dial and Red Dial shutters which I can email to you, Roland. fully correct William. Here is a copy of instruction manual for red dial, note at the bottom says, that for black dial IIIf there are separate tabeles, they may be obtained from Leica after sending camera serial number. It has to do with the shutter, or better with the travel speed of curtains. Shutter of IIIa and as well IIIa syn runs slowlier than IIIc black dial, so I assume that there were separate tables for IIIa syn as well. I never saw one, but I was not searching for it. But who would care now, it relates to bulb flash only. Electronic flash has a very short flash, it must be triggered when the shutter is fully open. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/290185-leica-conversions-who-has-one/?do=findComment&comment=4836586'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 16, 2023 Share #34  Posted August 16, 2023 7 hours ago, jerzy said: fully correct William. Here is a copy of instruction manual for red dial, note at the bottom says, that for black dial IIIf there are separate tabeles, they may be obtained from Leica after sending camera serial number. It has to do with the shutter, or better with the travel speed of curtains. Shutter of IIIa and as well IIIa syn runs slowlier than IIIc black dial, so I assume that there were separate tables for IIIa syn as well. I never saw one, but I was not searching for it. But who would care now, it relates to bulb flash only. Electronic flash has a very short flash, it must be triggered when the shutter is fully open. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I will have a look at what I have tomorrow by way of sync tables and will post the results here. I have a lot of original manuals from that period. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodgers Posted August 16, 2023 Share #35  Posted August 16, 2023 vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica: I will have a look at what I have tomorrow by way of sync tables and will post the results here. I have a lot of original manuals from that period. William My Leica IIIa syn, converted in the late 1950s from a black III, as it was already marked DBP instead of the older DRP, has neither red nor white flash contact numbers, but white ones. I have never seen a table for these Leicas with white flash contact numbers. Did such a table even exist? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 16, 2023 Share #36  Posted August 16, 2023 26 minutes ago, Rodgers said: My Leica IIIa syn, converted in the late 1950s from a black III, as it was already marked DBP instead of the older DRP, has neither red nor white flash contact numbers, but white ones. I have never seen a table for these Leicas with white flash contact numbers. Did such a table even exist? As far as I know, the white ones are on black cameras and are the same as the black dial variants. I have a table for Red Dial which I will post tomorrow. I had one . for Black Dial , but I cannot remember where I put it. From what I can see, the table for use with Black Dial cameras came with the flash and not the camera. It should be on the instructions for the CEYOO flash. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 17, 2023 Share #37  Posted August 17, 2023 The IIIa will probably have a ‘black dial’ sync scale because it will have the earlier shutter. This is interesting and confusing 🙂  Does it mean that the IIIa shutter curtains move at a different speed than the IIIf curtains? And so that IIIa synchronisation has to differ from IIIf synchronisation? And so that there are different synchronisation tables for IIIa and IIIf? And that in Leica terminology the one table is called 'red dial' and the other table is called 'black dial'? This would all make sense to me, but I haven't seen this explained clearly before. Roland  Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 17, 2023 Share #38  Posted August 17, 2023 (edited) The IIIf BD manual has no tables as they say they are available with the flash guns/lamps. The IIIf RD manual has a table. The best place to find everything together is in Andrew Matheson's book 'The Leica Way'. Here are some relevant pages, but there is more. The best way forward is to post these and people can ask questions. The issue of converted cameras is touched on here. To Roland's earlier question, the Red Dial cameras had a different speed scale and also a different construction. Earlier cameras should have a similar speed scale to the IIIf BD, but stuff happened in the mid to late 1940s with ball races, half race and so on which may have affected sync possibilities on earlier cameras.  Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I can post more if these don't answer all questions, but most of what is being sought would seem to be here. Happy Reading William  Edited August 17, 2023 by willeica 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I can post more if these don't answer all questions, but most of what is being sought would seem to be here. Happy Reading William  ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/290185-leica-conversions-who-has-one/?do=findComment&comment=4837196'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 17, 2023 Share #39  Posted August 17, 2023 William, Thank you. This was good reading 🙂 Unfortunately, the question of different flah numbers for a Leica IIIa converted for flash synchronisation is not answered. The text states that the red or black dials have to do with the two shutter speed scales of Leica f models. So the text does not refer to the synchronisation numbers for a synchronised Leica IIIa. I will check whether the German Kisselbach books have anything to say about this. Roland   Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 17, 2023 Share #40  Posted August 17, 2023 31 minutes ago, Roland Zwiers said: William, Thank you. This was good reading 🙂 Unfortunately, the question of different flah numbers for a Leica IIIa converted for flash synchronisation is not answered. The text states that the red or black dials have to do with the two shutter speed scales of Leica f models. So the text does not refer to the synchronisation numbers for a synchronised Leica IIIa. I will check whether the German Kisselbach books have anything to say about this. Roland   I knew you would enjoy it, Roland. Have a look at the bottom right of page 437. The information you need for the IIIa sync is there. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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