Leica M9 Monochrom camera profile in Adobe CameraRaw

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

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Hi,

 

Haven't been using my M9 Monochrom for a couple of months and ACR has been updated resulting in default ACR "camera" profile being Adobe Monochrome.

Cannot remember how it was in the past, but cannot find any camera profile (.dcp) for the camera since I want to edit it to get a custom profile.

The reason is that eg I noticed the Adobe Monochrome profile blows highlights in an unwanted way in comparison to the original dng data.

Please, can anyone help me out with how to find an M9 Monochrom profile.

 

thanks in advance,

 

Magnus

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[jaapv]

Make one yourself. Set your preferred settings and save as default.

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

jaapv, thanks for the advice.

 

However, trying Adobe DNG Profile Editor complains about invalid dng format and X-rite software crashed (most probably due to same reason).

Hence, if I had a dcp tool that accepts grayscale dng I would have used it.

 

I cannot be the only one using Leica M9 Monochrom in Photoshop/Lightroom, and suffering from latest ACR not recognizing your camera, or?

 

/magnus

Edited September 17, 2018 by Magnus_L_Andersson

[Luke_Miller]

With my M9MM DNGs Lightroom Classic CC (latest version)  gives me the choice of  of "embedded" if I am in Process Version 3, or "Monochrome" (but not embedded) if in Process Version 4.  

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

Luke, I get the same as you and digging into the details it clearly looks like it doesn't recognize any camera profile for the M9M and even has a problem recognizing it as a valid dng, The only available option Monochrome is a basic "creative" profile to create/manage grayscale images, hence it may/will not make use of M9M characteristics or worse result in less than optimal raw conversion.

 

Searching the net there are many complaining about problems with the latest ACR update resulting in not being able to use custom profiles,and for us without any predefined profile it make things even worse.

 

Considering "embedded" in Version 3 I wonder if there even is an embedded profile in the dng for the camera, since when trying to extract one it looks like this is not the case.

 

Anyone else with similar problems, and a good workaround since at least I have problems creating my own camera profile using X-rite or other software?

[jaapv]

jaapv, thanks for the advice.

 

However, trying Adobe DNG Profile Editor complains about invalid dng format and X-rite software crashed (most probably due to same reason).

Hence, if I had a dcp tool that accepts grayscale dng I would have used it.

 

I cannot be the only one using Leica M9 Monochrom in Photoshop/Lightroom, and suffering from latest ACR not recognizing your camera, or?

 

/magnus

 

 

I just updated CC, both Bridge and PS. I have no problem opening my MM1 files.

To make sure, when  you are in ACR, click on the underscored link right under the image. Set the colour space to RGB (either Adobe or s, it makes no difference). From now on your MM files will be opened in RGB, and should not give any trouble.  Although PS will work with Grey Gamma 2.2 (default), some other software like NIK may crash on the greyscale space.

There is no benefit in editing in Grey Scale anyway. 

[Luke_Miller]

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A similar question came up on the Capture One user forum.  C1 applies the "DNG File Neutral" to all DNGs from M9MM and M-246 cameras, but applies a camera specific profile to color camera DNGs.  Sounds like Adobe is doing something similar.  I suspect the reason may be that camera profiles are color profiles intended to produce accurate color from the raw file.  A monochrom DNG only contains luminance data so a camera profile is not applicable.  Just a guess.

 

So the Adobe applications (like C1 does) recognize the Monochrom camera, but apply a generic monochrome profile to it.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Luke_Miller

[jaapv]

Yes, but as I said, in PS one should change the default export from ACR--> PS to "sRGB, 16 bits". 

In ACR one can also -in Preferences- choose to make the defaults camera-specific. Then correct highlights, shadows, contrast etc. to fit the file and set that to default (little menu icon top right). ACR will apply this specific profile to all shots out of this specific camera.

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

Jaap,

 

I think we may talking about slightly different things.

 

My problem is not to open an M9M dng file or its color space, but that the raw "developing process" used is the Profile named Adobe Monochrome. It doesn't matter if you change the color space, it still only provides this option and no way to change it. Jaap, if you open an M9M dng do you actually get any other options than Adobe Monochrome as used Profile?

 

My point is that Adobe Monochrome is, as I understand it, a camera independent "developer" due to no existing camera profile (dcp) found corresponding to the M9M. In the case there where any registered camera profiles they would occur as Camera Mathing profiles, if my understanding is correct.

 

So, I want to use a "developer" that is linear, ie just imports the dng in an as-is way. With such a "developer" I can then create my own profile on top of it instead of one on top of the one created by Adobe that (in theory) even may have blowed highlights etc. But with Adobe Monochrome I have no idea of the used "developer" or its outcomes. Is there anyone out there having an M9M dcp, then I may edit it to be linear?

Edited September 18, 2018 by Magnus_L_Andersson

[jaapv]

No - that is quite logical, tbasically the ACR camera profile adjusts the colours to a specific camera. As the Monochrom does not have colours, there cannot be another colour profile than grey. I strongly suspect that the Adobe "profile" is a linear rendering.

If I take a CL file, the "Monochrome" histogram is identical to "Adobe Raw", which strongly suggests linearity.

 

Thus the tonal scale is adjusted in the (default) settings of the sidebar, which you can make camera-specific. You can regard that as a profile, if you wish.

 

However, I can understand the confusion. If you open a colour image in ACR you get 17 B&W settings under the profile pull-down. These are based on a B&W conversion and use the colour channels of the Bayer image to shift the tonal values. That is not possible with an image without colour channels - and the "profiles" should be called "presets".

 

I'm sure that Adobe introduced this thing to counter programs like Luminar, ON1 and others that are preset-based.

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

Jaap,

 

The M9M raw files are known to be considered "flat" and rather grayish out of the box, but if the Monochrom profile as just a linear y=x transformation this would not change after applying it. But, that is not the case and as I understand it a dcp contains both a color mapping and a implicit contrast curve, so why would the Monochrome profile not implement a contrast curve to ensure a "pleasing" B/W image?

 

So, is there any way to get the result of passing a dng through the ACR to actually look exactly like the original dng? Yes, with a dcp that is just a basic y=x transformation. But, since I cannot find out how to create a M9M dcp I'm stuck.

[Luke_Miller]

So, is there any way to get the result of passing a dng through the ACR to actually look exactly like the original dng? Yes, with a dcp that is just a basic y=x transformation. But, since I cannot find out how to create a M9M dcp I'm stuck.

I think Lightroom and ACR apply a default, non-linear, tone curve that is not user adjustable.  I've created a reverse "S" curve which makes the image match the Capture One version with a linear profile applied.  I can apply that curve on import to cancel the one applied automatically. I much prefer C1 for my Monochrom images.  I addition to having control over the curve being applied to the image C1 also has a Structure Tool which I use a lot.  To use that tool In lightroom/ACR I would have to process in Silver Efex Pro.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Luke_Miller

[CharlesL]

Raw Therapee will open Monochrom .DNG files.
1. Color Management | Input Profile, No profile (or you can try Camera profile)
2. Lab Adjustment | Lab-L curve: build the one you want
3. Color Management | Output Profile, sRGB or AdobeRGB
Output a .tif file and proceed in LR, PS, or your software of choice. Raw Therapee saves the settings as a companion.pp3 file, which you can apply to other Monochrom .DNG files, including batch processing.
 

Edited September 18, 2018 by CharlesL

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

First of all thanx to everyone participating in the discussion.

 

Yesterday I used 3D LUT Creator and X-Rite Color Checker to color match a dng file to an Adobe Monochrome (.tif) version of the same file.

The result looked very similar based on only using 36 points of the checker, hence not covering the full spectrum. However as can be seen by the enclosed snapshot of the lum curve it does not look like a linear "development" by Adobe Monochrom. I may be doing something completely weird, so great if someone can falsify my hypothesis of a non-linear conversion.

 

/magnus

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Edited September 19, 2018 by Magnus_L_Andersson

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

Anyone who has a dcp file for Leica M9 Monochrom to give way to allow me create a "neutralizer" LUT for those here who want to blow highlights on their own and not by Adobe Monochrome?

I tried every software I could image to create one, but they all complain about the grayscale color space...

[jaapv]

Might this be the software you are looking for?

 

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dcptool/

 

http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Introduction.html

[jaapv]

I think I pinpointed the source of your trouble. It probably has nothing to do with the greyscale colour space.

As the Monochrom does not need a demosaicing algorithm, the DNG produced is non-raw, in the format "linear DNG"

Only few software programs could read this format at the time of the introduction of the camera  in fact it appeared only Adobe products could. It took a year for Mac to catch up, for instance.

 

 

http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/linear.htm

 

Note that the article suggests that Silkypix is a good raw converter for linear DNG. Scroll down for a list of software.

 

So all speculations about profiles in ACR are beside the point, as they apply to "raw DNG" conversions.

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

Jaap,

 

Just to make sure I understand your latest post.

 

Do you claim the output from the ACR Monochrome profile (the only available choice) is an exact copy of the input?

Hence, the suggested graph above to be incorrect?

 

I know that the input is linear dng, but that does not mean Adobe leaves the output as a copy of the input.

 

I agree that it's not the colour space as such that is the problem for some software, but its realisation as a linear dng.

 

/Magnus

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[jaapv]

I don't claim it is, I have no way to tell, but it is clear that comparing to a raw DNG conversion will not give a meaningful answer. The very flatness of the file suggests some form of linearity.

It might be worth noting that Leica stated at introduction that they matched the tonal response of the sensor to Delta 100. As Adobe normally follows the specs of the camera maker, I would not be surprised if they kept the response unaltered.

 

Another thing is that in practice pulling up the midtones of the curve will mostly improve the tonality quite dramatically. No idea what that indicates either.

 

We should really get Sandy in on this, I guess.