New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[sillbeers15]

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Whatever spec the SL2 will offer would have been fixed in design and manufacturing readiness with supplier components committed six moths before product launch. Now would be the time when prototype gets beta testing and firmware tweaking. Save all your EVF hopes to SL3. 

I would be surprised if SL2 can offer hardware specs exceeding S1R as both launches within 12 moths. There will be many shared components and design between S1R & SL2 since Leica has been coorperating with Panasonic for years on multiple earlier models of cameras with AF. 

The possible differentiation between SL2 and S1R would possibly be subtle Color rendering on images captured. Better adaptation of M & S lenses. Most likely the user interface in menu and buttons will greatly differ.

Just my thoughts.

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb sillbeers15:

I would be surprised if SL2 can offer hardware specs exceeding S1R as both launches within 12 moths.

They don’t use the same suppliers for all the components and Epson is on a three to four year cycle. A bit more challenging this time. 😀

 

2012:https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1310984034/epson-creates-ultramicron-electronic-viewfinder-with-2-4m-xga-resolution

2015:https://www.diyphotography.net/new-hi-res-evf-covers-98-of-the-srgb-color-space-opens-host-of-new-possibilities-for-mirrorless/

 

[sillbeers15]

6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

They don’t use the same suppliers for all the components and Epson is on a three to four year cycle. A bit more challenging this time. 😀

 

2012:https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1310984034/epson-creates-ultramicron-electronic-viewfinder-with-2-4m-xga-resolution

2015:https://www.diyphotography.net/new-hi-res-evf-covers-98-of-the-srgb-color-space-opens-host-of-new-possibilities-for-mirrorless/

 

You’re right that not all components are from same suppliers but on the SL’s AF, it certainly is a development of contrast detect AF from Panasonic.The firmware update that comes along each time a new lens appears from Leica clearly shows the AF as a form of Panasonic DFD Technology. This is also why almost no Nikon & Canon AF lens can work consistently well with Leica SL + adapters as these Nikon & Canon lenses AF info. do not exist in SL’s AF database for DFD to work like native SL lenses.

I suspect one major L mount collaboration is the DFD Technology needed database sharing. On one of the B&H sponsored S1R reviews, the Leica SL 24-90mm lens performed as well as Panasonic S1R’s native lenses. 

[jdlaing]

21 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

You’re right that not all components are from same suppliers but on the SL’s AF, it certainly is a development of contrast detect AF from Panasonic.The firmware update that comes along each time a new lens appears from Leica clearly shows the AF as a form of Panasonic DFD Technology. This is also why almost no Nikon & Canon AF lens can work consistently well with Leica SL + adapters as these Nikon & Canon lenses AF info. do not exist in SL’s AF database for DFD to work like native SL lenses.

I suspect one major L mount collaboration is the DFD Technology needed database sharing. On one of the B&H sponsored S1R reviews, the Leica SL 24-90mm lens performed as well as Panasonic S1R’s native lenses. 

You have that a little backwards. 

The Panasonic native lenses performed as well as the 24-90.

[LocalHero1953]

26 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

You’re right that not all components are from same suppliers but on the SL’s AF, it certainly is a development of contrast detect AF from Panasonic.The firmware update that comes along each time a new lens appears from Leica clearly shows the AF as a form of Panasonic DFD Technology. This is also why almost no Nikon & Canon AF lens can work consistently well with Leica SL + adapters as these Nikon & Canon lenses AF info. do not exist in SL’s AF database for DFD to work like native SL lenses.

I suspect one major L mount collaboration is the DFD Technology needed database sharing. On one of the B&H sponsored S1R reviews, the Leica SL 24-90mm lens performed as well as Panasonic S1R’s native lenses. 

Where in the firmware updates does it show the Panasonic heritage?

[sillbeers15]

9 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Where in the firmware updates does it show the Panasonic heritage?

Certainly there will be no mention of Panasonic name. I remember clearly that each time a new SL lens launched, there is a firmware update that mentions the new lens as one of the firmware additions. Why do you need that apart from camera could recognise the new lens?

[sillbeers15]

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DFD would be a patent by Panasonic. 

If Leica’s contrast detect is without DFD, it would not be such a fast AF in the SL and we would have been terribly disappointed.

 

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb sillbeers15:

Certainly there will be no mention of Panasonic name. I remember clearly that each time a new SL lens launched, there is a firmware update that mentions the new lens as one of the firmware additions. Why do you need that apart from camera could recognise the new lens?

Those red warning stickers on the rear lens caps always scare me a bit. 

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Certainly there will be no mention of Panasonic name. I remember clearly that each time a new SL lens launched, there is a firmware update that mentions the new lens as one of the firmware additions. Why do you need that apart from camera could recognise the new lens?

I see.

That is not evidence that supports your statement "The firmware update that comes along each time a new lens appears from Leica clearly shows the AF as a form of Panasonic DFD Technology"!

[sillbeers15]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I see.

That is not evidence that supports your statement "The firmware update that comes along each time a new lens appears from Leica clearly shows the AF as a form of Panasonic DFD Technology"!

Can you tell me another contrast detect autofocus system you know that is comparable to the speed of DFD?

[LocalHero1953]

No. My ignorance of such matters knows no bounds, which is why I asked. My question was to find out whether you had direct or indirect evidence that Leica's AF was Panasonic's. You may well be right - but I like to know the source and strength of the evidence. 

[Chaemono]

Maybe the red warning stickers on the rear lens caps give it away for sillbeers15. Perhaps he reads them this way: “Warning! Don’t mount that freakin’ lens on a camera that hasn’t been updated with its bokehlicious rendering and micro contrast data.” This forms the basis for DFD AF, I believe. 

https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-dfd-focusing-explained/

[sillbeers15]

6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Maybe the red warning stickers on the rear lens caps give it away for sillbeers15. Perhaps he reads them this way: “Warning! Don’t mount that freakin’ lens on a camera that hasn’t been updated with its bokehlicious rendering and micro contrast data.” This forms the basis for DFD AF, I believe. 

https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-dfd-focusing-explained/

No need to be sarcastic Chaemono. If you have constructive information, I appreciate that you chip in, else stop behaving like a kid. 

[sillbeers15]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

No. My ignorance of such matters knows no bounds, which is why I asked. My question was to find out whether you had direct or indirect evidence that Leica's AF was Panasonic's. You may well be right - but I like to know the source and strength of the evidence. 

You can choose to believe what you believe. There will not be direct edvidence available if you are looking for one such as  ‘Leica uses DFD Technology’, I’m just sharing my thoughts on camera and lenses and not attempting to convert your religion.

There was a patient filed by Panasonic on the Leica 90-280mm. Why? Leica needed technical help from Panasonic on optical design? Can that be? What else can that be other than AF related?

The SL’s AF performance and specs is very similar to GH4, which launched just before SL. Down to the connection point between camera body and handgrip. Coincidence? 

I do not believe Leica will be able to provide an AF system in the coming SL2 better than S1R if it were still based on contrast detect AF offered by no other maker than Panasonic as they are the only one solely using contrast detection AF. The performance will be very close but with different user interface. We will wait and see if this is indeed as I’ve guessed.

Edited March 13, 2019 by sillbeers15

[Chaemono]

You are mean, sillbeers15.  I was paraphrasing from the article I linked but you didn’t realize. 

“In order for DFD technology to work the camera needs to know the level of micro contrast that a lens can achieve and understand its bokeh, the quality of the out of focus areas.’

Hence the red warning stickers not to use lenses with older camera firmware. 

[sillbeers15]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

You are mean, sillbeers15.  I was paraphrasing from the article I linked but you didn’t realize. 

“In order for DFD technology to work the camera needs to know the level of micro contrast that a lens can achieve and understand its bokeh, the quality of the out of focus areas.’

Hence the red warning stickers not to use lenses with older camera firmware. 

I apologise for my oversight.

[LocalHero1953]

5 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

You can choose to believe what you believe. There will not be direct edvidence available if you are looking for one such as  ‘Leica uses DFD Technology’, I’m just sharing my thoughts on camera and lenses and not attempting to convert your religion.

There was a patient filed by Panasonic on the Leica 90-280mm. Why? Leica needed technical help from Panasonic on optical design? Can that be? What else can that be other than AF related?

The SL’s AF performance and specs is very similar to GH4, which launched just before SL. Down to the connection point between camera body and handgrip. Coincidence? 

I do not believe Leica will be able to provide an AF system in the coming SL2 better than S1R if it were still based on contrast detect AF offered by no other maker than Panasonic as they are the only one solely using contrast detection AF. The performance will be very close but with different user interface. We will wait and see if this is indeed as I’ve guessed.

I'm not sure how we got onto belief and religion. I asked about evidence for your statement. As you say in your last line, you may be right, but it was guesswork. I don't have a problem with that, but if you'd said so upfront instead of your initial assertion ("clearly shows" etc), we would have avoided any apparent disagreement.

[thighslapper]

8 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

There was a patient filed by Panasonic on the Leica 90-280mm. Why? Leica needed technical help from Panasonic on optical design? Can that be? What else can that be other than AF related?

The patent was related to the dual AF system with 2 moving lenses ...... not the AF method itself ........

Moving 2 small lenses is faster than moving one big lens. 

However the L mount alliance clearly involved some horse trading ..... and I suspect Leica was more interested in access to technology rather than just a licensing fee. Getting all the alliance lenses to work well on the available bodies must have involved free access to the relevant algorithms .... and I suspect any bespoke improvements in speed and accuracy are more down to processing power and coding tweaks that improve efficiency (and AI in Pansonics case). Leica have a long history of working with Panasonic on lens design and it would be logical to assume that Leica leads on the optics and Panasonic on the electronic gubbins and manufacture. 

None of this is a startling new revelation. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by thighslapper

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, thighslapper said:

The patent was related to the dual AF system with 2 moving lenses ...... not the AF method itself ........

Moving 2 small lenses is faster than moving one big lens. 

However the L mount alliance clearly involved some horse trading ..... and I suspect Leica was more interested in access to technology rather than just a licensing fee. Getting all the alliance lenses to work well on the available bodies must have involved free access to the relevant algorithms .... and I suspect any bespoke improvements in speed and accuracy are more down to processing power and coding tweaks that improve efficiency (and AI in Pansonics case). Leica have a long history of working with Panasonic on lens design and it would be logical to assume that Leica leads on the optics and Panasonic on the electronic gubbins and manufacture. 

None of this is a startling new revelation. 

Yes. The L mount alliance is a good thing for product makers and users. I see Leica and Sigma having strength in optics and Panasonic bringing electronics and AF know how to the table. 

I also see Leica getting more pressure to produce a comparable SL2. However the past products do not typically show Leica being the lagger than leader in terms of technology. I am fine by that so long as SL2 is good and ip to date mirrorless camera. However of late, I see the possibility of no in body stabslizer and none standard flash protocol as S1R based on the launch of Q2 made me wonder seriously if I should ditch he idea of waiting for SL2 and accept S1R as the body over my SL lenses while having to relearn the complicated multiple buttons and complex user interface. So the L mount alliance can cut both ways for Leica especially if they cannot match up to users’ expectations.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[verwackelt]

It is just a matter of habits if the SL or the S1R seems complicated.
As a longtime Panasonic GH2 -GH5 and G9 user i found the SL menus very unintuitive and complicated as i borrowed me a SL for a weekend.
At the end of the Weekend i saw much clearer. The same will be with the menue from the S1 or S1R for a new user. They have much more features than the SL so there has to be a menue that is much bigger. But for normal work you do not have to dive so deep in menus and the quick menue will be sufficient...