New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[BernardC]

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It will upset some collectors and might disappoint some users of Leica SL cameras who saw this also as a good investment which it might be no longer to the expected amount or resale value. 

I can see resale values for the SL holding strong for the next few months.

 

Lots of people will want to get into the L-Mount system, and the SL is the only game in town. It's also a very compelling camera in its own right, with outstanding performance and reliability.

 

Yesterday's announcements multiplied the SL's potential customer base by several orders of magnitude. That can't be bad for resale.

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[jonoslack]

It affects the back-focus/lens register distance, so it should be part of the specification.

 

What wouldn't be part of the specification is any Leica microlens "special sauce," the depth of pixel wells (which is apparently much less for Leica sensors compared to competing sensors), and any software correction for M lenses.

 

I think the lens register distance is to the surface of the sensor NOT to the front of the coverglass (why would that be relevant?).

[frame-it]

...3:40

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by frame-it

[ramarren]

I'm happy. The L-mount alliance means more bodies, sensor types, and lenses available across three brands. The L-mount and lens protocol is very well designed and works brilliantly for both APS-C and FF sensors. It's neither undersized nor flimsy, like some others I could name. The alliance means lots more options to choose from, each with their strengths and weaknesses, from multiple vendor brands.

 

None of which affects me directly other than the possibility of interesting new lenses available for my CL, should I choose to buy any. I already have a full complement of lenses in M and R mount that work beautifully on my CL, the resolution of the CL is just fine for my needs, the features of the CL (other than the lack of a wired remote release port) are just right, and the sensor quality is excellent too ... I have very little motivation to buying anything else at this point other than maybe a dedicated lens or two. Leica already offers at least two (11-23mm and 35mm/1.4) that are on my short list.

 

I look forward to seeing all the new products from Panasonic and Sigma as they appear.

[BernardC]

I think the lens register distance is to the surface of the sensor NOT to the front of the coverglass (why would that be relevant?).

 

Optical flats refract light 1/3 more than air. In other words, the speed of light in glass is less than it is in air, which in turn is less than in a vacuum.

 

What this means is that a 1mm difference in cover glass thickness is the equivalent to a 0.3mm difference in back focus. That's a huge difference. Remember the Konica Hexar controversy? That was over a fraction of that difference (0.05mm).

[PeterGA]

I look forward to the next iteration of the SL since this one has and continues to bring me much joy - next to the XID, the SL is no doubt the most beautiful design in a camera body since the R8/9. Happy to see Leica earn some royalty fees for licensing its magnificent L mount. The world is changing - real fast;  Sony is busy making CaNikon irrelevant and Fuji is busy obsoleting Phase One and Hasselblad . Leica will survive as long it produces elegant products with good enough technology to keep offering the amenity and utility of the more important technological advancements - matched to beautiful glass of course.

 

Sadly I think Leica is barking up the wrong tree pretending to offer product in larger than ff 35mm land - even a card carrying Leica fanboy of 30 years standing (like myself) has fallen for the Siren call of Fuji in MF land....never thought I'd see the day I could say that Leica can't compete with a Fuji product and yet here we are.

[ramarren]

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Sorry, but I'm just never going to buy a Fuji product again ... They've all been disappointing to me other than Instax film. Such it is.

 

I'm glad they make you happy, regardless!

[jonoslack]

Optical flats refract light 1/3 more than air. In other words, the speed of light in glass is less than it is in air, which in turn is less than in a vacuum.

 

What this means is that a 1mm difference in cover glass thickness is the equivalent to a 0.3mm difference in back focus. That's a huge difference. Remember the Konica Hexar controversy? That was over a fraction of that difference (0.05mm).

 

With a rangefinder sure - with an EVF I don't think so

[Keith_W]

I wonder if this also means that Panasonic and Sigma will be contributing to Leica's APS-C system. I certainly hope so! 

[BernardC]

With a rangefinder sure - with an EVF I don't think so

 

The problem here is with internal focus lenses (all current SL lenses). If the back focus is off, the IF optimization will be off as well. A lens may think it is focusing at infinity, when it is actually focusing at 4m. Not an issue with unit-focusing lenses, but it could be noticeable with IF lenses. You may not get the full performance that you paid for.

 

In addition, some lenses may not focus all the way to infinity, and zooms may not hold focus as well throughout the zoom range.

 

Bigger picture: the original 4/3 spec had very thick sensor glass (4mm). That was probably because of the available technology 15 years ago (The Olympus E-1 came out in 2003). There is no reason to do that any more, other than backwards compatibility. The L-Mount is backwards-compatible to M and R mounts, but not to other "digital" mounts like m3/4, Nikon, EOS, Sony, etc. I expect that Leica will have included cover glass thickness in the L-Mount specifications.

[ajayk]

This is the best news, now we will have a superb Panasonic 47MP with Leica lenses up to 150mm and Sigma lenses beyond that. May be in future Sigma body with leica lenses also.

[ajayk]

Leica has killed its SL market by this move, but then it was not selling and company was in red. Now they can stick to M bodies

[LocalHero1953]

Leica has killed its SL market by this move, but then it was not selling and company was in red. Now they can stick to M bodies

Leica reported revenue and ebit growth in last figures. This combination is unusual in the camera industry. 

Your source for profit and SL sales? Neither are published, but I suspect the former is in the black.

[darylgo]

Hi There

no - the SL lenses are not designed for a thinner cover stack - The thickness of the cover stack is irrelevant for tele-centric lenses (like most modern lenses), meaning those where the light hits the sensor more or less vertically.

 

Most M lenses are not tele-centric (ie the light hits the sensor at an oblique angle). Which is why they are affected by a thicker cover stack. 

 

So cover glass stack thickness is not likely to be part of the L mount specification.

 

All the best

 

Hi Jono,

When shooting IR with the SL greater exposure time in needed than the M240, neither is modified.  This makes me think the IR filter, part of the cover glass is thicker, yet the M lenses perform well on the SL, with reports of slight slight degradation but nothing like Sony.   Can you shed any light on this?

[LocalHero1953]

...3:40

 

I can't find any published figures yet for the S1 dimensions, but holding a ruler against the screen and comparing the L-mount with my SL gives me 145mm width and 105mm height - as near as dammit to the SL. Given that the Nikon Z6/7 and Canon EOS R are smaller, I wonder what drove Panasonic to remain at Leica SL size: EVF size? battery capacity? heat dissipation? If so, it will be interesting to see if the Nikon and Canon offerings are compromised in these aspects.

[helged]

I can't find any published figures yet for the S1 dimensions, but holding a ruler against the screen and comparing the L-mount with my SL gives me 145mm width and 105mm height - as near as dammit to the SL. Given that the Nikon Z6/7 and Canon EOS R are smaller, I wonder what drove Panasonic to remain at Leica SL size: EVF size? battery capacity? heat dissipation? If so, it will be interesting to see if the Nikon and Canon offerings are compromised in these aspects.

Hand and holding comfort? (the size of the SL is perfect for my hands)

Edited September 26, 2018 by helged

[Ivar B]

Leica has killed its SL market by this move, but then it was not selling and company was in red. Now they can stick to M bodies

 

I disagree. Offering buyers flexibility is almost always a good move. Obviously the three companies have analysed this very carefully also. I am very happy with my SL, and having more lenses to chose from rather than fewer, is for me a good thing. Leica lenses should also be of interest to Sigma and Panasonic users.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Ivar B

[bags27]

Leica reported revenue and ebit growth in last figures. This combination is unusual in the camera industry. 

Your source for profit and SL sales? Neither are published, but I suspect the former is in the black.

Every time there is some glimpse into Leica's finances, it reveals a company in the black...and expanding.

OTOH, Blackstone has been shopping its 45% share in the company (Kaufmann family owns the other 55%) and there may be a push to increase Leica's profits and therefore its attractiveness to outside buyers.

 

I personally don't think the consortium killed the SL. What might kill the SL is if Leica doesn't produce an SL2 by the time the Panasonic camera gets established.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Tailwagger]

Like lots of us I spend hours every day with my camera. I don't just look at the specs, I'm much much more interested in the experience of shooting. I don't want 26 pages of menus or 63 buttons. I actually like the Panasonic cameras (especially the G9), but comparing the shooting experience with either an M10 or an SL is just a joke. 

 

I just don't think that people who buy Leica cameras do it on the basis of specifications. Sure, Leica aren't going to sell as many L mount cameras as Panasonic, but I'm willing to bet they'll sell more SL2s than they ever sold SLs (and that is the point isn't it?)

 

Perhaps, and I certainly hope you're correct.  But I'm compelled to say that having already invested close to a new Porsche in the M system over the past few years, I'm to a point where I'm not so inclined in this instance to spend solely on the basis of badge and reduced button count, particularly if there is a substantially cheaper, similarly performing, alternative.  Simplicity of UI is both desirable and valuable, no doubt, but there is a limit as to how much I'm willing to fork over for it.  I suspect I'm not alone in this view.

 

Regardless, I'm not knocking what they're doing, I'm actually rather excited by it.  I've desired a complimentary, EVF-based body for my M glass for quite a while now, but found the SL simply not compelling enough.  Perhaps this time around the value proposition will indeed be sufficient.  I do, however, find I'm asking myself whether or not Leica has arrived at this point as a result of seeing this as a salvage operation for a failed experiment. Put another way, does this signal a shift away from boutique camera manufacture to concentrate more on the optical side of the house.  ie. a decade hence will they look more like a Zeiss than a diminutive FuSoCaNikon?

[LocalHero1953]

Hand and holding comfort? (the size of the SL is perfect for my hands)

Well, I would be happy with an M-size SL2, even though I don't think it will happen, though I agree some people prefer bigger kit (not just men, a woman pro photographer I know is happiest with her biggest Nikon DSLR or a massive video camera on her shoulder).