M10; Bulb, Polarizer, Rendering !!!!..

[wosamko]

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Dear Good afternoon from Qatar

I guess my Leica M10 is still at Qatar custom for clearance. Hopefully I get it this week. Here are some questions I need your valuable answers;

 

1- Someone mentioned that M10 does not need Circular Polarizer! Is it true? If not, is their any Circular Polarizer I don't have to rotate it since I cannot see through rangefinder?

 

2- Do I need ExpoDisc to correct the colors? I hope M10 and Leica lenses can handle this issue!

 

3- Regarding long exposure; Is it possible through iPhone I take I shot and keep the lens open for more than 2 minutes? Like 15 minutes!

 

4 -Sensor Heating due to long time exposure; Is it a matter for cooling the sensor, or I have to take it to the dealer for replacement? Asking about the risk of taking long exposures

 

5- Does the camera needs maintenance at the dealer every few years? Why?

 

6 -What is better than Adobe Lightroom? I don't like monthly subscription

 

7- "President" means leader of country :(Politics), or leader of a business company :(Economy and profits). What is about rendering? I don't know what it exactly means! Some people says it  means sharpness, some say it is bokeh, some say it is color! "Out of Focus Rendering", "Contrast Rendering" ?!!!!! Please assist ?!!!

 

 

As usual you assistance is highly appreciated.

 

Kindest Wishes,

 

Wosamko

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[a.noctilux]

Wosamko,

 

I try to clear some points, but I can't answer all of your questions.

Some more knowledged members will of course.

 

1 - Circular Polarizer can be used with M10 in LV mode or Visoflex 020 !

There are two types of polarizer filter : linear that polarizes light on one plane, circular that polarizes in "circular way" so usable with other polarized device

(think of AF, etc. not in M10 yet)

The two of course are in circular standard filter mount and can be oriented/turning at will.

 

2 - No

 

3 - longest time exposure can be as long as 4 minutes (new feature with last firmware) depend on ISO setting

 

4 - When it's too hot, just let the M10 cooling down and it's usable after that ... no need to send to Leica for that (never heard of this case ! )

 

5 - Yes as M10's precision mechanical/optical may need some adjustments, but if it works as you hope, don't worry to send it to Leica

or for sensor cleaning if you don't want to do it yourself

 

6 - no opinion

 

7 - I don't understand what you mean, so no opinion here

 

...

Last word, have fun with your future M10 .

[wosamko]

Wosamko,

 

I try to clear some points, but I can't answer all of your questions.

Some more knowledged members will of course.

 

1 - Circular Polarizer can be used with M10 in LV mode or Visoflex 020 !

There are two types of polarizer filter : linear that polarizes light on one plane, circular that polarizes in "circular way" so usable with other polarized device

(think of AF, etc. not in M10 yet)

The two of course are in circular standard filter mount and can be oriented/turning at will.

 

2 - No

 

3 - longest time exposure can be as long as 4 minutes (new feature with last firmware) depend on ISO setting

 

4 - When it's too hot, just let the M10 cooling down and it's usable after that ... no need to send to Leica for that (never heard of this case ! )

 

5 - Yes as M10's precision mechanical/optical may need some adjustments, but if it works as you hope, don't worry to send it to Leica

or for sensor cleaning if you don't want to do it yourself

 

6 - no opinion

 

7 - I don't understand what you mean, so no opinion here

 

...

Last word, have fun with your future M10 .

 

Dear a.noctilux,

Thanks for your awesome reply and kind assistance.

 

1- "linear that polarizes light on one plane" . What does "One Plane" mean? , You said "not in M10 yet" . What is not yet on M10 exactly?

 

7- What does photo rendering means in Leica? Based on your answers I will ask some questions until we understand each other's minds

 

Kindest wishes,

Wosamko

[frame-it]

#6 capture one pro >> https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Software/Capture-One-Pro/Highlights.aspx

[a.noctilux]

1 - Autofocus (AF)  not in M10 yet, so every Pol filter can be used.

 

7 - Photo rendering means what everybody want/need it to be or whatever to justify the cost of their gear .

I'm not serious here.

 

That notion of "Leica rendering" or "Leica Glow" or "..." are so subjective that I don't have opinion to say .

 

Have a look here to build your own opinion (for what M10 can "do" with a proper lens ):

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/286851-the-versatility-of-the-naughtylux-on-the-m10-image-thread/

Edited August 6, 2018 by a.noctilux

[jaapv]

Dear Good afternoon from Qatar

I guess my Leica M10 is still at Qatar custom for clearance. Hopefully I get it this week. Here are some questions I need your valuable answers;

 

1- Someone mentioned that M10 does not need Circular Polarizer! Is it true? If not, is their any Circular Polarizer I don't have to rotate it since I cannot see through rangefinder?

 

2- Do I need ExpoDisc to correct the colors? I hope M10 and Leica lenses can handle this issue!

 

3- Regarding long exposure; Is it possible through iPhone I take I shot and keep the lens open for more than 2 minutes? Like 15 minutes!

 

4 -Sensor Heating due to long time exposure; Is it a matter for cooling the sensor, or I have to take it to the dealer for replacement? Asking about the risk of taking long exposures

 

5- Does the camera needs maintenance at the dealer every few years? Why?

 

6 -What is better than Adobe Lightroom? I don't like monthly subscription

 

7- "President" means leader of country :(Politics), or leader of a business company :(Economy and profits). What is about rendering? I don't know what it exactly means! Some people says it  means sharpness, some say it is bokeh, some say it is color! "Out of Focus Rendering", "Contrast Rendering" ?!!!!! Please assist ?!!!

 

 

As usual you assistance is highly appreciated.

 

Kindest Wishes,

 

Wosamko

1. Circular polarizer has nothing to do with rotating - it is the system of polarizing by the filter. You can use one on the M10, but it is not needed, a linear one suffices. Leica produces a weird-but-wonderful Polarizer which allows you to set the polarizing effect through the optical viewfinder.

https://www.pebbleplace.com/reviews/rangefinder/leica_universal_polarizer/index.html

 

2. You do not  need an Expodisk. Set the camera to daylight  or AWB and correct the white balance in post-processing. For difficult light the camera offers a grey-card setting. You do need to shoot raw. Set the camera to DNG+JPG fine.

 

3. The long exposures on the M10 are limited; in addition there is a delay by the automatic Black Frame Noise Reduction (AKA LENR). It is not a strong point. This is to cope with the risk of the sensor overheating. Should that happen, I know Qatar can be exceedingly hot, the camera will warn and in extreme cases shut down. It is not known to have happened yet, but if it should occur, just leave it to cool down a bit, switch it on again and carry on shooting.

 

4. No, the camera does not need maintenance every few years. 

 

5. High-quality alternatives to Lightroom are ON1 and Luminar. Both offer tweakable presets and extensive video tutorials on their websites.

Capture1 is excellent but needs somewhat more expertise, thus is not an alternative to Lightroom, more like an alternative to Photoshop.

 

6. Rendering is a completely subjective term to describe the way the lens puts the image onto the end print. I wouldn't bother with it for the time being if I were you.

 

Edit: The only maintenance might be sensor cleaning if needed. Most users do this themselves (the Forum offers extensive instructions*) but you can have it done by a professional sensor cleaning service, when needed.

 

 

* https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/?p=2464057

[Narsuitus]

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2- Do I need ExpoDisc to correct the colors? I hope M10 and Leica lenses can handle this issue!

 

An ExpoDisc is one of many white balancing tools.

 

I have used the following and found all of them acceptable:

1.Gray card

2.White card

3.White paper plate

4.White notebook paper

5.White coffee filter

6.White tracing paper

7.White balance lens cap

8.Expodisc

 

White Balancing Tools by Narsuitus, on Flickr

[Narsuitus]

7- "President" means leader of country :(Politics), or leader of a business company :(Economy and profits). What is about rendering? I don't know what it exactly means! Some people says it  means sharpness, some say it is bokeh, some say it is color! "Out of Focus Rendering", "Contrast Rendering" ?!!!!! Please assist ?!!!

 

To me, rendering is how a lens or a lens and a camera body can produce images that are slightly different in color, tint, shading, tone, saturation, contrast, resolution, bokeh, and/or flare to make the images look slightly different from those produced by a similar lens or lens and camera body.

 

Probably similar to how one properly tuned violin can produce sounds that are different from another.

[wjdrijfhout]

6- Capture One Pro from PhaseOne. Not the fastest when it comes to supporting latest Leica cameras, but M10 is supported. There is a lot of debate whether Capture One is better than Lightroom or the other way around, and a lot of it comes to personal preference I guess. I’ve tried to like Lightroom over Capture One multiple times but kept coming back to Capture One. For me pictures keep coming out better with more micro-contrast and definition and better colors. Capture one Pro comes as license purchase, no subscription. But some of the upgrades are paid upgrades. Including the price for the updates you probably pay around the same for either Lightroom or Capture One.

[Narsuitus]

6 -What is better than Adobe Lightroom? I don't like monthly subscription

 

I use Corel PaintShop Pro X7 because I too do not like monthly subscriptions.

[wosamko]

1. Circular polarizer has nothing to do with rotating - it is the system of polarizing by the filter. You can use one on the M10, but it is not needed, a linear one suffices. Leica produces a weird-but-wonderful Polarizer which allows you to set the polarizing effect through the optical viewfinder.

https://www.pebbleplace.com/reviews/rangefinder/leica_universal_polarizer/index.html

 

2. You do not  need an Expodisk. Set the camera to daylight  or AWB and correct the white balance in post-processing. For difficult light the camera offers a grey-card setting. You do need to shoot raw. Set the camera to DNG+JPG fine.

 

3. The long exposures on the M10 are limited; in addition there is a delay by the automatic Black Frame Noise Reduction (AKA LENR). It is not a strong point. This is to cope with the risk of the sensor overheating. Should that happen, I know Qatar can be exceedingly hot, the camera will warn and in extreme cases shut down. It is not known to have happened yet, but if it should occur, just leave it to cool down a bit, switch it on again and carry on shooting.

 

4. No, the camera does not need maintenance every few years. 

 

5. High-quality alternatives to Lightroom are ON1 and Luminar. Both offer tweakable presets and extensive video tutorials on their websites.

Capture1 is excellent but needs somewhat more expertise, thus is not an alternative to Lightroom, more like an alternative to Photoshop.

 

6. Rendering is a completely subjective term to describe the way the lens puts the image onto the end print. I wouldn't bother with it for the time being if I were you.

 

Edit: The only maintenance might be sensor cleaning if needed. Most users do this themselves (the Forum offers extensive instructions*) but you can have it done by a professional sensor cleaning service, when needed.

 

 

* https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/?p=2464057

 

In Qatar, by 13:00 under sun, after using the iphone for some minutes, the iPhone shutdown and shows message "needs to cool down before you can use it". It looks like I must keep my Leica inside Coleman Cooler if I take shot under the sun  

[wosamko]

An ExpoDisc is one of many white balancing tools.

 

I have used the following and found all of them acceptable:

1.Gray card

2.White card

3.White paper plate

4.White notebook paper

5.White coffee filter

6.White tracing paper

7.White balance lens cap

8.Expodisc

 

White Balancing Tools by Narsuitus, on Flickr

 

 

1. Circular polarizer has nothing to do with rotating - it is the system of polarizing by the filter. You can use one on the M10, but it is not needed, a linear one suffices. Leica produces a weird-but-wonderful Polarizer which allows you to set the polarizing effect through the optical viewfinder.

https://www.pebbleplace.com/reviews/rangefinder/leica_universal_polarizer/index.html

 

2. You do not  need an Expodisk. Set the camera to daylight  or AWB and correct the white balance in post-processing. For difficult light the camera offers a grey-card setting. You do need to shoot raw. Set the camera to DNG+JPG fine.

 

3. The long exposures on the M10 are limited; in addition there is a delay by the automatic Black Frame Noise Reduction (AKA LENR). It is not a strong point. This is to cope with the risk of the sensor overheating. Should that happen, I know Qatar can be exceedingly hot, the camera will warn and in extreme cases shut down. It is not known to have happened yet, but if it should occur, just leave it to cool down a bit, switch it on again and carry on shooting.

 

4. No, the camera does not need maintenance every few years. 

 

5. High-quality alternatives to Lightroom are ON1 and Luminar. Both offer tweakable presets and extensive video tutorials on their websites.

Capture1 is excellent but needs somewhat more expertise, thus is not an alternative to Lightroom, more like an alternative to Photoshop.

 

6. Rendering is a completely subjective term to describe the way the lens puts the image onto the end print. I wouldn't bother with it for the time being if I were you.

 

Edit: The only maintenance might be sensor cleaning if needed. Most users do this themselves (the Forum offers extensive instructions*) but you can have it done by a professional sensor cleaning service, when needed.

 

 

* https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/?p=2464057

 

But if I came back from holiday. While doing post processing, I will not remember how the colors looked like to modify ! is there anyway without using tools. Checking the photo on live view will take time and battery consumption

[wosamko]

How do I charge the M10 battery from my Power bank while I am on travel. I do not have extra battery since the dealer does not sell batteries due to customes restrictions as they said !!!

[wosamko]

I use Corel PaintShop Pro X7 because I too do not like monthly subscriptions.

 

Is it better than Lighroom? Thanks

[jaapv]

It works - but it is Windows only.

[jaapv]

But if I came back from holiday. While doing post processing, I will not remember how the colors looked like to modify ! is there anyway without using tools. Checking the photo on live view will take time and battery consumption

Forget about that. If you want colour fidelity you use a color checker passport and use a color managed workflow in your postprocessing. eyeballing it will never work, especially not on a camera LCD. I have yet to see one, on any brand, that is useful for judging colour. I guess an iPhone comes closest.

 

Colour fidelity is a chimera anyway. Even if you embarked on the study of colour and colour management, the light by which you view your results will always differ from the original light - and the colours are determined by the light.

 

In travel photography the best you can do is match the colours to your memory. 

[M11 for me]

To me, rendering is how a lens or a lens and a camera body can produce images that are slightly different in color, tint, shading, tone, saturation, contrast, resolution, bokeh, and/or flare to make the images look slightly different from those produced by a similar lens or lens and camera body.

 

Probably similar to how one properly tuned violin can produce sounds that are different from another.

Isn‘t the violin an excellent image to describe what „rendering“ could be. As with „rendering“ the sound of a violin is most individual. Many people hear no difference between 2 violins anyway as is with the „rendering“ of our M10 and lens combination. Its something very small detailled and you need to be experienced to make out the difference. And some of my friends claim anyway that it is simply a question of moving some rulers in lightroom to come to the same result.

[wosamko]

Forget about that. If you want colour fidelity you use a color checker passport and use a color managed workflow in your postprocessing. eyeballing it will never work, especially not on a camera LCD. I have yet to see one, on any brand, that is useful for judging colour. I guess an iPhone comes closest.

 

Colour fidelity is a chimera anyway. Even if you embarked on the study of colour and colour management, the light by which you view your results will always differ from the original light - and the colours are determined by the light.

 

In travel photography the best you can do is match the colours to your memory. 

 

 

Isn‘t the violin an excellent image to describe what „rendering“ could be. As with „rendering“ the sound of a violin is most individual. Many people hear no difference between 2 violins anyway as is with the „rendering“ of our M10 and lens combination. Its something very small detailled and you need to be experienced to make out the difference. And some of my friends claim anyway that it is simply a question of moving some rulers in lightroom to come to the same result.

 

As someone said, and I quote "School teaches you then it tests you, but life tests you then it teaches you". Both of you are humble, supportive and provide clear knowledge. God bless both of you. I got a whatsapp two hours ago that I can collect both M10 and 35mm 1.4 Today. It is 85km away and I am enthusiast to hold it as I hold Patek Philippe 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

Patek can not take pictures !

 

Anyway, when you collect your M10 kit, first charge the battery for some hours, after that I hope you can really enjoy your new Leica.

 

To learn, the only way is to use it a while, then if you have some questions, we are proud to help you .

 

Cooling, I don't think so that you must keep M10 in cooler.

Maybe, the camera would heat up a bit when in use, and when cooling down at not too hot environment usable.

Mine, once a while shows the message only when used with Visoflex 020.

Alone, never had "hot message".

Edited August 7, 2018 by a.noctilux

[jaapv]

As someone said, and I quote "School teaches you then it tests you, but life tests you then it teaches you". Both of you are humble, supportive and provide clear knowledge. God bless both of you. I got a whatsapp two hours ago that I can collect both M10 and 35mm 1.4 Today. It is 85km away and I am enthusiast to hold it as I hold Patek Philippe

 

 

 

The most important thing for you now is to learn how to focus. Once you have gone through the learning curve, it is the easiest thing in the world. Practice, practice, practice and don't give up if you find it hard initially.

Like riding a bicycle. You'll fall off at first, but after a while you are ready for the Tour de France

 

 

 

Question: I come from an autofocus camera background. What is the best way to get good focus on the M9?

 

The M10 works the same way as any rangefinder camera, the central patch in the viewfinder is your focussing tool.

It is important to look through the viewfinder in the optical axis. Looking into the camera skewed will result in inaccurate focus.

 

The first thing to do is to ascertain that you can see the rangefinder patch properly. A correct match between the rangefinder and your eye is even more important than it is using an SLR.

Leica sells corrective diopter lenses. Determining which one you need - if any- can be done by going to your optician and holding his try-out lenses between your eye and the viewfinder. The one that allows you to see the rangefinder patch and framelines sharply is the correct one. Order the nearest value from Leica. In a pinch you can use over-the-counter reading glasses for this test. If your eyes need special corrections, you can use your spectacles, provided you can see clearly at 2 meters distance ( the virtual distance of the rangefinder patch).

 

 

 

Once the viewfinder is corrected optimally, there are three methods of focussing, in ascending order of difficulty aka training.

 

1. The broken line method. Look for a vertical line in the image and bring it together in the rangefinder patch to be continuous.

 

2. The coincidence method. Look for a pattern in the image and bring it together to coincide. This may lead to errors with repeating patterns.

 

3. Advanced users only:

The contrast method. Once you have focus by method 1. or 2. a small adjustment will cause the rangefinder patch to "jump" into optimum contrast. At that point you have the most precise focussing adjustment.

 

Side remarks:

 

For special cases there are viewfinder magnifiers. They can help, especially with longer and fast lenses and they can give confidence, but they can also be not very useful; they cannot correct errors in the focussing mechanism. Leica offers a 1.25x one and a 1.4x. These need diopter correction like the camera, but often of a different value than the camera viewfinder.

 

If you try focussing on a subject emitting polarized light like a reflection it may happen that the polarizing effect of the prism system in the rangefinder will blot out the contrast in the rangefinder patch, making focussing difficult. In that case rotate the camera 90 degrees to focus.

 

Note that when one focusses and recomposes the camera will turn. For geometrical reasons one must bend slightly backwards to keep the focussing distance constant.