Really “Is it the end of M road”?

[dantemi]

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Jaap, in my experience (I'm not that good at video), for fixed videos, the manual focus is fine, but when you need to move from one subject/plan to another, AF is the best option and the canon system enables focusing by touching the back screen. BTW a go pro doesn't take too much room in your bag 

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[jaapv]

Yes, it doesn't and I have an iPhone (and a backup Panasonic)- but you are separating the videos from the images, which makes for a lot of extra work sorting the results of a trip. Not to mention extra batteries, chargers, etc. What's more, the image quality of the M240 was miles beyond any GoPro.

I wouldn't advocate the M240 for more serious work - although I have seen beautiful results by professional video makers, it is quite doable- it was more of a moving notebook for travel and a talking head option for journalists.

I am a bit of a video dummy as well

 

There is more - if a camera has 4K video or possibly 8K, there are extra options for stills, like 30 FPS bursts with pre-release. And possibly even post focus and focus stacking - you can run a manual lens, especially one with a focus tab, through a focus range during the burst.

And yes, I use those options on cameras that have them.

[mmradman]

I had to ask as my grandson and two great grandsons are Navajo and Ute Tribes and don’t have a spot of red on them. I had never heard that term before.

You heared it now. Red skin to go with Red dot. Talking of Indians inhabitants of Indian subcontinent come in all shades of humanity, from pale Caucasian to very dark, but no red. Human skin colours like red, yellow, black or white are all cultural stereotypes, some of them should belong to history books.

.

I may not be true English but than language is flexible, especially said English. In my mother’s tongue which is Croatian in my childhood we used to refer to Western movies as Cowboy and Red Indian.

[pgk]

Yes, it doesn't and I have an iPhone (and a backup Panasonic)- but you are separating the videos from the images, which makes for a lot of extra work sorting the results of a trip. Not to mention extra batteries, chargers, etc. What's more, the image quality of the M240 was miles beyond any GoPro.

I wouldn't advocate the M240 for more serious work - although I have seen beautiful results by professional video makers, it is quite doable- it was more of a moving notebook for travel and a talking head option for journalists.

I am a bit of a video dummy as well

 

There is more - if a camera has 4K video or possibly 8K, there are extra options for stills, like 30 FPS bursts with pre-release. And possibly even post focus and focus stacking - you can run a manual lens, especially one with a focus tab, through a focus range during the burst.

And yes, I use those options on cameras that have them.

 

Sorry to say it jaapv but this does sound like videobabble . Explain to me the logic of having 8K, "miles better image quality" and a moving notebook when you wouldn't advocate a camera for 'more serious work'. All sounds a little illogical to me and you could do most of this and more with an A7 series camera and have the fun of trying to figure out its menu system at the same time. I don't see the logic of stuffing video into a simplistic camera - the two do not sit well together IMO no matter what. Video is a tack on - its that simple - and panders to the specification market, not the Leica M user.

[jaapv]

Ok. In that case remove AE, EV comp, Auto ISO. All tack-ons and not Wesentlich. Oh  -and EVF, Focus magnification and Focus Peaking. Live View,  It is unlogical to pick on one modern feature and embrace the rest.

[pgk]

Quite. You are getting the right idea .  Actually I have used none of those on your list but still manage to take photos - food for thought. And I simply cannot remember when I even last used Aperture Priority.

 

To me the M is a manual camera. All I have to do is adjust aperture, shutter speed and focus (as it happens I never alter ISO either but apply 'gain' in post processing). In an ever increasingly complex world, getting back to the very basics of photography is somehow rather refreshing. We have been here before but I personally think that Leica would do well to produce a 'purist's' camera with the absolute minimum of settings - they could so easily do this alongside an 'enhanced' full frills version.

 

The advantages of digital - review, histogram, etc are undoubtedly the absolute advances to be retained even on such as simple camera (no blank camera back for me) - but otherwise pure simplicity would suit me perfectly.

[IkarusJohn]

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Leica would be stupid to reintroduce video to the M system. A return to the bloat of the M240.

 

What Jaap lists as unnecessary functions are relevant to stills photography. Might not get used, don’t cause heat management issues, but are relevant to a stills M camera. The success of the M10 would suggest that Leica has got this right.

 

Want video? Get an L mount camera - they work well with M lenses and provide the Sony/Panasonic electronic functionality, but in that Leica way people here seem to like. The CL even has the M look ...

Edited August 13, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[jaapv]

Quite. You are getting the right idea .  Actually I have used none of those on your list but still manage to take photos - food for thought. And I simply cannot remember when I even last used Aperture Priority.

 

To me the M is a manual camera. All I have to do is adjust aperture, shutter speed and focus (as it happens I never alter ISO either but apply 'gain' in post processing). In an ever increasingly complex world, getting back to the very basics of photography is somehow rather refreshing. We have been here before but I personally think that Leica would do well to produce a 'purist's' camera with the absolute minimum of settings - they could so easily do this alongside an 'enhanced' full frills version.

 

The advantages of digital - review, histogram, etc are undoubtedly the absolute advances to be retained even on such as simple camera (no blank camera back for me) - but otherwise pure simplicity would suit me perfectly.

I cannot agree more. It is either-or. I was quite taken with M240 as a first attempt to take the rangefinder concept into the future. However, the M10 is a confused concept - back to the analog M's with digital "film" ? Fine, I'm all for it - but then: no EVF, no live view, no digital gimmicks.

Or: Develop and shrink the M240 concept - smaller, improved video and other present-day features. Or create two lines.

This one is fish nor fowl.

[mmradman]

 

Removal of video was sold as virtue but in fact it was compromise. So, if technology in the future allows it it doesn’t add much to camera except some additional firmware. Just don’t use features one don’t fancy.

 

Asking for stripped down camera is like driving without windscreen on purpose, you still may need goggles.

[mdp]

 

Asking for stripped down camera is like driving without windscreen on purpose, you still may need goggles.

That depends on if you want to drive a boring road car or a single seater racing car... I prefer the latter! No need for a windscreen.

[mmradman]

That depends on if you want to drive a boring road car or a single seater racing car... I prefer the latter! No need for a windscreen.

I am conventional so don’t drive single seater racing cars. I noticed such cars are usually moved around on transporter so useful to pretty much everybody as proverbial chocolate teapot.

[farnz]

.... However, the M10 is a confused concept - back to the analog M's with digital "film" ? Fine, I'm all for it - but then: no EVF, no live view, no digital gimmicks. ...

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you meant, Jaap, because my M10 has LiveView and a slide on EVF (Visoflex 020).  Just no video, which suits me very well.

 

Pete.

[jaapv]

Or drive a Morgan with fold-down windscreen, as I did for decades

[jaapv]

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you meant, Jaap, because my M10 has LiveView and a slide on EVF (Visoflex 020).  Just no video, which suits me very well.

 

Pete.

And no artificial horizon

[farnz]

And no artificial horizon

 

Which I've never used so I haven't missed it.

 

Pete.

[Tailwagger]

Or drive a Morgan with fold-down windscreen, as I did for decades

 

My retirement plan as a younger man was to tour the US in a Morgan 3 wheeler with an M  at the ready.  As that day draws nearer, the Morgan has morphed to a Mercedes RV. No doubt, when the day arrives the M will, of necessity, be an SL. 

[dkmoore]

I cannot agree more. It is either-or. I was quite taken with M240 as a first attempt to take the rangefinder concept into the future. However, the M10 is a confused concept - back to the analog M's with digital "film" ? Fine, I'm all for it - but then: no EVF, no live view, no digital gimmicks.

Or: Develop and shrink the M240 concept - smaller, improved video and other present-day features. Or create two lines.

This one is fish nor fowl.

 

 

Two lines is the way to go. This has to be feasible financially for Leica since they have birthed many lines of cameras in just the last 3-4 years  (T, Q, S, SL, D-lux 109). Not to mention for the past 1.5-2 years they have been making both M240 and M10 cameras. 

[pgh]

Ok. In that case remove AE, EV comp, Auto ISO. All tack-ons and not Wesentlich. Oh  -and EVF, Focus magnification and Focus Peaking. Live View,  It is unlogical to pick on one modern feature and embrace the rest.

These are all tools that are directly related to the making of the still image, the purpose of the M, that don't bloat the M and can be ignored easily.

I'm sure if they could make M lenses magically autofocus they may do it. These are not gimmicks if you're using them the way they're intended to be used, they are aids. This is a slippery slope argument that just ends up with the logical conclusion of cave drawing being the best method, the only true method for image recording. 

The M is a still camera, I could care less if it doesn't have video because every other camera in my bag, and my phone, does. It's worth it to make the M a better "M" if it means sacrificing a middling video feature. If the subtraction of video was necessary to get the form, it was worth it, and that alone makes it a logical exclusion - at least for many users. If EVF or focus magnification made the camera's form or basic user experience compromised then it could be reasonable to subtract it, but the better the sensors get the less the rangefinder is going to be completely reliable for some images, so those aids will be even more necessary. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Gobert]

Or drive a Morgan with fold-down windscreen, as I did for decades

Now we’re talking. You’re a man to my heart.

[jaapv]

These are all tools that are directly related to the making of the still image, the purpose of the M, that don't bloat the M and can be ignored easily.there will come a time that there will be no

Yes, and so is video. Look at the CL. The video can easily be ignored and does not bloat the camera. Many users (including Steve Huff) don't even know it is there. The only outward signs are two small holes and an LCD pictogram. No one has complained about its presence - that is a very specific bee in some very vocal M bonnets.

 

As for related to making the still image: stills and video are getting more and more integrated - the point is not far that there will be no difference between a video frame and a still - and camera technology will reflect this. Even now, 4K video is used on many cameras to add options to stills. Even the CL, although it is a rather behind times in that respect. At least it has interval shooting using the video. I really miss post-focus on it, it is getting to be an essential part of focus-stacking, especially in macro. I'm just starting to discover it. Fascinating.