1st quarter been and gone and still no Ektachrome

[wlaidlaw]

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We are now past the scheduled re-introduction date for Ektachrome of 1st quarter 2018. The last official update was in Nov, 2017 from Kodak Alaris, where they said they were on track to meet that target. However, in the interim, financial affairs have not been going well for Kodak, with the recent debacle on crypto-currency not helping. It all makes me wonder if a brake has been put on R&D expenditure, which would inevitably delay Ektachrome. The suppliers for the 80 chemical components for the emulsion, may also want paying up front. I suspect if I were a supplier to Kodak, I would either want paying up front before I committed to manufacture or be able to buy credit insurance, which given Kodak's B3 Moody's rating, would not come cheap. 

 

I really hope that Kodak do manage to produce the goods on Ektachrome, especially as I hear that the longevity of production of Agfa Precisa CT100 (bulk film made for them by Fuji), my current favourite reversal film, is looking doubtful. I would have thought that for some months before public release of Ektachrome, there would be external testing with various US based professionals. As far as I understand, the only testing to date has been internal and some folk who were lined up to test, have not yet received any product. 

 

Anyone got any fresh news? 

 

Wilson

[adan]

About all I can find is that:

 

1) the Ektachrome re-introduction is primarily to produce a "one-step" means of filming with the new Kodak Super-8mm ciné camera ("one-step" meaning no need for the "printing" step to get a "positive," viewable movie, for film school students, e.g.) The film, once available ,will first be produced in 8mm, then 16mm, and only then - if ever - in other formats.

 

2) a near-production prototype of the camera was demonstrated, but using color neg film and a "work print" for projection, at CES 2018 (Jan.) But the camera is not yet in final production and available for purchase. So.....

 

3) even the 8mm version of E100D was not yet "ready for prime time" as of January. And until the camera is available, there's no rush to get the E100D out the door in 8mm, and even less rush to make it available in other formats.

 

I wonder whether Kodak has had a color-reversal-emulsion production machine "mothballed" ever since 2013 - or if they are having to rebuild a production line from scratch....

 

Actually - this (also Jan 2018) partly answers that last question: https://www.thecameralife.com/2018/02/19/update-to-ektachrome-production-yes-its-still-happening/

 

Kodak isn’t in a position just to restart the machines and start producing Ektachrome again, they basically have to start from scratch. The film has about 80 components to it, some of which have either been lost or just not in production anymore. This is leaving Kodak in a position to either re-invent the formula, or go to great lengths sourcing the original ingredients.

 

That link gives a delivery date now of "sometime in 2018."

 

We do have to remember that color-positive film is the most difficult film to get right. Neg films have wider production tolerances since they always go through a "printing" stage, whether movies or snapshots, where corrections can be made to color and exposure and consistent look. Direct-reversal films are the final image, so they have to be perfect and "finished" right out of the film fixer. That expensive extra precision was Kodak's stated reason for dropping E6 films altogether in the first place.

Edited May 27, 2018 by adan

[wlaidlaw]

Andy, 

 

Even though the idea for the film was to provide a medium for their new cine camera, I would bet that the super 8 sales will be a tiny fraction of what they will sell in 135.

 

The folks like me who still like film, are often scanning the developed product so that they can print on digital printers. In around 20 years of scanning film, I have never yet managed to get perfect colour from colour negative film. From colour reversal, I get perfect colour, pretty much every time, especially since I changed from using film scanners and flat beds to using a Leitz BEOON and the SL 601 camera, with an LED slide box.

 

In reality at present in reversal film, there is only Fuji film, either marketed as Fuji or Agfa. I am not a big fan of Fuji Provia or Velvia, as I think they have an odd colour balance shifted to the blue/green end of the spectrum. The Agfa Precisa, although also made by Fuji uses a pale brown substrate, which warms the colours and to my eyes, makes them more natural but if rumours are correct, it is about to be withdrawn like its colour negative sister has already been. It is also cheaper than Provia, which is another benefit, so I have just bought 20 rolls for the freezer. Velvia 50 has a slightly  better colour balance than Provia but is a bit slow for everyday use and the rumour is that Velvia is for the chop during 2018. 

 

All this would only leave us with Provia as a choice, which would not please me. I think Ektachrome will take a lot of the film market in 135, when it finally arrives. Most of the remaining film market is an enthusiast core of photographers, with the snappers all now using phones. A reasonable proportion of this market prefer reversal, for its colour saturation and to be perverse, because it is more difficult to use and thus more satisfying when you get it right. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

There is an argument going on in academia at present as to whether ethnicity or cultural influences, alter perception of colour. The two sides are the universalists, who say all peoples (other than the colour-blind) perceive colours identically and the relativists, who say that colour perception has ethnic and cultural differences. This is also linked into linguistics for colours. For example the Candoshi people in Peru, have no absolute words for colour at all. They seem to perceive the colour of an object solely in relation to its surroundings and not as a stand alone, so that the word for the appearance of an object will vary according to its background. As languages develop, the earliest words for colours seem to arrive at the red end of the spectrum with maybe just one word covering all greens and blues. The more evolved languages such as English, German, Italian and Japanese are those with the most different words for colour shades. 

 

Given the foregoing, it should therefore come as no surprise that the teams at film makers, brewing up the very complicated chemical soups to make the various layers of a colour reversal film, will have differing ideas of what constitutes "correct" colour balance. From my experience, US made colour reversal films, like Kodachrome and Ektachrome, seemed to have very strong and well defined primary colours, reds blues and greens but subtle gradations of colour was not their strength. European colour reversal films, such as Agfachrome, Ferraniachrome and Perutzchrome, seemed to be more orientated towards green/brown with very subtle gradations of those colours. Japanese colour reversal film such as Fujichrome and Konicachrome, seemed biased towards purple-blue-green, with again, subtle gradations in this part of the spectrum. 

 

My father used to say that Ferraniachrome was only any good for taking pictures of the Italian army, in their brown uniforms against brown trucks, so the remote chances of its resurrection, does not fill me with much enthusiastic anticipation.  Given the endless problems Ferrania are having with the far simpler C41 negative film, I don't see the far more difficult reversal ever happening. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

BTW anyone considering trying Rollei Variochrome, I would not bother. It is not disclosed but this is time expired bulk film, that was indifferently stored over the probably 10 years since it was made, possibly in the Balkans. It has grain like a 1600 ISO B&W film and colours are very undersaturated and muddy. I bought a three roll pack and after getting the first one back from the excellent processors I use (Photon in Toulouse), I put the remaining two rolls in the dustbin. A total con trick, selling this rubbish. 

 

Wilson

 

PS Correction. it is actually old Agfa-Gevaert Aviphot CR200 aviation film chopped into 36 exposure lengths and sold as Variochrome, trying to make a virtue out of its variable results (from poor to very poor). This has apparently been stored in a non-chilled warehouse since it was last made around 2004-5. The emulsion is similar to Agfa RSX II-200, which was an OK film when I last used it around 2003, but 14 years of indifferent storage will not have improved it. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[Dr Owl]

The Agfa Precisa, although also made by Fuji uses a pale brown substrate, which warms the colours and to my eyes, makes them more natural but if rumours are correct, it is about to be withdrawn like its colour negative sister has already been.

Sorry, Wilson, but AG Photographic in the UK posted this page on its website earlier this month

 

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/agfa-colour-reversal-slide-film-386-c.asp

 

saying that Agfaphoto CT Precisa 100 has already been discontinued.

 

Sigh.

 

Neither AG Photographic nor Mathers of Lancashire have any left.

 

John

[wlaidlaw]

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Sorry, Wilson, but AG Photographic in the UK posted this page on its website earlier this month

 

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/agfa-colour-reversal-slide-film-386-c.asp

 

saying that Agfaphoto CT Precisa 100 has already been discontinued.

 

Sigh.

 

Neither AG Photographic nor Mathers of Lancashire have any left.

 

John

 

John, 

 

Thanks for letting me know. I thought I still had a few months yet but obviously not. Fotomeister in Bad Brambach still had some stock as of this morning. I just bought another 20 rolls of 135. However, although they send to France, I am not sure they send to the UK. 

 

Wilson

[jaapv]

There is an argument going on in academia at present as to whether ethnicity or cultural influences, alter perception of colour. The two sides are the universalists, who say all peoples (other than the colour-blind) perceive colours identically and the relativists, who say that colour perception has ethnic and cultural differences. This is also linked into linguistics for colours. For example the Candoshi people in Peru, have no absolute words for colour at all. They seem to perceive the colour of an object solely in relation to its surroundings and not as a stand alone, so that the word for the appearance of an object will vary according to its background. As languages develop, the earliest words for colours seem to arrive at the red end of the spectrum with maybe just one word covering all greens and blues. The more evolved languages such as English, German, Italian and Japanese are those with the most different words for colour shades. 

 

Given the foregoing, it should therefore come as no surprise that the teams at film makers, brewing up the very complicated chemical soups to make the various layers of a colour reversal film, will have differing ideas of what constitutes "correct" colour balance. From my experience, US made colour reversal films, like Kodachrome and Ektachrome, seemed to have very strong and well defined primary colours, reds blues and greens but subtle gradations of colour was not their strength. European colour reversal films, such as Agfachrome, Ferraniachrome and Perutzchrome, seemed to be more orientated towards green/brown with very subtle gradations of those colours. Japanese colour reversal film such as Fujichrome and Konicachrome, seemed biased towards purple-blue-green, with again, subtle gradations in this part of the spectrum. 

 

My father used to say that Ferraniachrome was only any good for taking pictures of the Italian army, in their brown uniforms against brown trucks, so the remote chances of its resurrection, does not fill me with much enthusiastic anticipation.  Given the endless problems Ferrania are having with the far simpler C41 negative film, I don't see the far more difficult reversal ever happening. 

 

Wilson

Interesting that you should mention Japanese. Although there is a word  for Green (midori), the green of a traffic light is seen as blue (ao-shingo) .  So even if the concepts and words are there, the perception differs culturally.

[wlaidlaw]

Interesting that you should mention Japanese. Although there is a word  for Green (midori), the green of a traffic light is seen as blue (ao-shingo) .  So even if the concepts and words are there, the perception differs culturally.

 

I came across this interesting diagram of colour perception differences between cultures, when I was researching this a couple of days ago. 

 

Wilson

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[ianman]

Thanks for letting me know. I thought I still had a few months yet but obviously not. Fotomeister in Bad Brambach still had some stock as of this morning. I just bought another 20 rolls of 135. However, although they send to France, I am not sure they send to the UK. 

 

Wilson

Wilson,

Retro camera still have limited stock at €8,95/roll if you are interested. If they don't send (but I think they do), I can pick some up and send to France/UK if it can help.

[wlaidlaw]

Wilson,

Retro camera still have limited stock at €8,95/roll if you are interested. If they don't send (but I think they do), I can pick some up and send to France/UK if it can help.

 

Ian, 

 

That's very kind. I will now have 34 rolls of Precisa CT100 after the 20 roll order from Fotomeister arrive at my French house. Surely by the time I have used that lot up (about 2-3 years supply), Ektachrome will be out.

 

I have been trying again today to scan Ektar colour negative and correct the colour after removing the orange substrate cast using Photoshop and someone's free action to reverse the colours - yerchhhh! It is very annoying that I cannot use the version of Silverfast 8, including the expensive purchased upgrade, that came with my Plustek Opticfilm scanner but that will only connect to the scanner and you cannot import either DNG or JPEG images into it for correction. I was hoping to find some kind person had hacked the program so I could use it as a stand alone but the answer was only for Windows not Mac. 

 

Wilson

[ianman]

Have you tried ColorPerfect ? I've not used it myself as I don't own Photoshop, but I've read good things about it.

[zeitz]

A short observation on perception of color.  After cataract surgery my personal perception of color changed.  I understand from my surgeon that this is normal.  So the universalists are clearly wrong.

[wlaidlaw]

A short observation on perception of color.  After cataract surgery my personal perception of color changed.  I understand from my surgeon that this is normal.  So the universalists are clearly wrong.

 

I know exactly what you mean. For a week I had one eye with a new lens and one with the old. I could not believe how yellow things looked with my "meat" lens compared with the Bausch and Lomb plastic lens 

[jaapv]

Same here. I had a full lens and cornea replacement in my left eye and no surgery to my right one. There is a big difference in colour temperature between the eyes. However, somehow the brain averages this out when using both eyes. Actually it is quite practical using Photoshop, instant switching between warm and cool by blinking one or the other eye and average WB  with two eyes.

[wlaidlaw]

Have you tried ColorPerfect ? I've not used it myself as I don't own Photoshop, but I've read good things about it.

 

Ian,

 

I have just watched their video. I am not sure my brain is big enough to cope with all that and that I have an hour to play around with each image. Very clever but a bit OTT. 

 

Wilson

[ianman]

I agree that the video on their website is rather overwhelming. They do also have film (and camera) presets so all you need to do is apply the preset and you should be done. They may have a demo version, it could be interesting to give it a try.

 

This video shows the preset process: https://youtu.be/_h5Vrs52im8?t=6m44s

[oldwino]

I don’t think anyone should hold their breath waiting for a new Ektachrome. With Kodak’s financial issues, it’s probably better to worry about the potential loss of Tri-x, Portra, etc.

[wattsy]

Kodak have posted this on Instagram. I'm not quite sure what the video is meant to demonstrate (looks like something from the 1950s) but I guess we should deduce that Kodak hasn't given up.

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Hallo,

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[wlaidlaw]

Kodak have posted this on Instagram. I'm not quite sure what the video is meant to demonstrate (looks like something from the 1950s) but I guess we should deduce that Kodak hasn't given up.

 

Ian, 

 

Having looked at the Instagram, I hope Kodak will do one heck of a lot better than that with the final version they put on sale. Those images look like the Gen.1 version of Ektachrome from the 1950's, when we went: "Yerchhhhh" and went straight back to Kodachrome. The colours look faded and washed out, if grain free and the colour was a bit like the Lomochrome I tried, which is I believe, outdated Agfa Aviphot film, the same stuff as Rollei Variochrome. The end results of the Agfa Precisa CT100 I am using at the moment (Fuji Provia 100F emulsion on a different substrate), are miles better than the photos they show. 

 

Wilson

 

PS Here is a quick scan of a shot with no particular artistic merit but showing the sort of colour balance and saturation I get with Precisa. Taken with an M7 and Summilux 50 v. III, scanned with an SL601 and BEOON. I think Precisa was the nearest film we could get to the feel of Kodachrome, which is why I now have 26 rolls sitting in my freezer. 

 

 

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Edited June 4, 2018 by wlaidlaw