Leica M7 now discontinued

[colonel]

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An original film Leica was most definitely an affordable and practical tool.

The observation that the (financial) “value” of an M7 drops 50% is basically my point - namely that Leica’s customers are increasingly people who buy special edition cameras or lenses primarily as heirlooms or investments rather than as a daily photographic tool. You can see this clearly in the numerous special editions released and the threads on this forum discussing the pros/cons of black paint vs chrome etc.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong making things for this market, but unless the company *also* provides practical daily tools and support for photographic use, Leica will in an fundamental sense cease to be about the quality photography that underpins its “brand” (for want of a better word).

 

I disagree that a original film Leica was affordable. They were always very expensive. Much cheaper to buy a canon or nikon DSLR

 

In reality, the amount of people who buy as "heirlooms" or not to use is minuscule. Most people buy to use.

The amount of special edition sales are dwarfed by regular editions

 

I just think that the legend is a legend

Edited May 30, 2018 by colonel

[wlaidlaw]

From memory I think my M4 body new in 1967 was around £150 but with a 10% discount, as my father and his father before him had been long time customers at the shop in Aberdeen. Corrected for inflation this is equivalent to £2,650 today. Now the M7 is a considerably more complicated camera with metering and AE, compared with the M4, so the current UK price of £3,600 is roughly in line. In other words, they have always been quite expensive. 

 

Wilson

[Mark II]

This thread on photo.net has some competitive pricing from the heyday of the M3 in the 1960s: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/camera-prices-then-and-now.462648/

 

Leica was not cheap, but neither was it outrageously expensive. And you got a build quality and longevity that was at the time arguably consistent with the cost.

 

Comparing the cost of an M7 to a DSLR today is meaningless, not least because of the relative sales volumes and (again) expectations of how long digital cameras are expected to last (although this is changing rapidly, as maturing technology and shrinking markets have reduced the pressure for regular upgrades to get image quality improvements etc).

[Martin B]

I bought my M7 two years ago used in mint condition from a camera store online for $1700. It is worth now about $2400 if I would sell it. 

 

All my digital camera gear depreciated a lot but my Leica analog cameras increased in value since.

[colonel]

I bought my M7 two years ago used in mint condition from a camera store online for $1700. It is worth now about $2400 if I would sell it.

 

All my digital camera gear depreciated a lot but my Leica analog cameras increased in value since.

Only because you bought them second hand in the first place. That is beside the point

 

This thread on photo.net has some competitive pricing from the heyday of the M3 in the 1960s: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/camera-prices-then-and-now.462648/

Leica was not cheap, but neither was it outrageously expensive. And you got a build quality and longevity that was at the time arguably consistent with the cost.

Comparing the cost of an M7 to a SLR today is meaningless, not least because of the relative sales volumes and (again) expectations of how long digital cameras are expected to last (although this is changing rapidly, as maturing technology and shrinking markets have reduced the pressure for regular upgrades to get image quality improvements etc).

Sorry, I meant SLR. Comparison to an alternate, such as a SLR, is very relevant, as the rangefinder is always regarded as a premium device and Leica especially so

Edited May 30, 2018 by colonel

[M9reno]

Someone in the German forum reports that Leica have replied to his question about the M7: M7 discontinuation is not official and when it is, or is imminent, it will be announced on the Leica homepage.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284960-leica-m7-—-produktion-eingestellt/?p=3528141

 

A few posts later, someone pointed out that he’s still waiting to read on the homepage about what will happen to the R-system...

[Martin B]

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Only because you bought them second hand in the first place. That is beside the point

 

 

So far I have never bought anything new from Leica. Always on the used market (including lenses). New Leica gear prices are just too crazy for me.....more reasonable used, always. That's my point. 

[Anbaric]

Around the turn of the century the M6 TTL used to be about the same price as the top of the range Nikon F5 in the UK. When the M7 was announced in 2002, one UK dealer was asking about £1900 for pre-orders. The same dealer wants £3600 today, a 90% increase. Of course the stock market crash and the Brexit referendum etc. haven't done the GBP to EUR exchange rate any favours, and we've had a 2.5% hike in VAT, so this isn't all down to Leica. But some lenses, like the 35 Summicron have gone up even further, albeit with minor design changes. Secondhand prices have shot up noticeably in the last couple of years - M6 prices were static at about £800 for a long time, but dealers are now asking £1200 and up. Some of that might also be due to the low value of the Pound compared to the Euro, as a Leica can easily be sold internationally. Even so, the ratio between new and secondhand prices is perhaps higher than ever for a camera like the M7.

[colonel]

So far I have never bought anything new from Leica. Always on the used market (including lenses). New Leica gear prices are just too crazy for me.....more reasonable used, always. That's my point.

Point is taken

 

But there is a happy market for the new price, just see Leica’s financials over the last few years

 

There is a reason that the Heuer Calibre 01 mechanisms are £1000 more then Calibre 16, but only afficienados will know (clue movement)

There is a reason that the X100F is more expensive then the X-E3 and 35mm f2 (clue where is it made/OVF ?)

There is a reason a Porsche Boxter is more expensive then a Lexus 250

 

And so a hand made camera in Germany out of unusual materials will always cost more

 

I actually think for what Leica offers it’s M series are actually not overpriced at all

 

In terms of comparing things to the 70s. The Leica M is much more of a marginal tool then it was then, thus the price.

Mass production makes cheaper. Unusual makes more expensive. e.g.  Compare the best selling TV size of 55mm price to 65mm, just 10mm more but 3x the price (I am aware this this comment will be out of date in about a week )

You takes your choice and pays your money ......

Edited May 30, 2018 by colonel

[Martin B]

Point is taken

 

But there is a happy market for the new price, just see Leica’s financials over the last few years

 

There is a reason that the Heuer Calibre 01 mechanisms are £1000 more then Calibre 16, but only afficienados will know (clue movement)

There is a reason that the X100F is more expensive then the X-E3 and 35mm f2 (clue where is it made/OVF ?)

There is a reason a Porsche Boxter is more expensive then a Lexus 250

 

And so a hand made camera in Germany out of unusual materials will always cost more

 

I actually think for what Leica offers it’s M series are actually not overpriced at all

 

In terms of comparing things to the 70s. The Leica M is much more of a marginal tool then it was then, thus the price.

Mass production makes cheaper. Unusual makes more expensive. e.g.  Compare the best selling TV size of 55mm price to 65mm, just 10mm more but 3x the price (I am aware this this comment will be out of date in about a week )

You takes your choice and pays your money ......

 

Let's not forget where the biggest markets for Leica currently are: in Asia and Near East. Many there who can afford it put down $$$$ much more willingly. I highly doubt that the same amount of people spend $$$$ for a new M camera in Europe or in the US (of course there are also, but in a much smaller number). Leica also lives a lot from collectors - they buy this gear as investment. If Leica would be just relying on Western consumer markets, it wouldn't exist anymore. Another reason why the M-mount used markets are so big in the US. Many (me included) don't consider it worthwhile spending this money for brand new gear especially not for much faster depreciating Leica digital gear.....but each on their own. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Martin B

[wlaidlaw]

My £1100 second hand M7 works infinitely better than my £2000 new one did in 2002. There is a lot often to be said for allowing the first owner to bear the brunt of depreciation and sorting out the problems. I have been an early adopter of Leica digital cameras since the Digilux Zoom came out  in 1999 and usually had lots of problems. Even my recent CL and 18-56 both had to be exchanged for new ones due to build errors. My M240 came back totally broken after its lugs were tightened and had to be exchanged. Only the SL to date has proved mechanically and electrically sound and the only issues were dealt with by firmware upgrades. I am sure the later adopters of the various digital Leicas had a less bumpy ride. 

[Boojay]

Well, with my usual impeccable timing, after some long hard thinking, I purchased a used M7 from a UK Leica dealer - the day before the announcement.  It arrived at 5pm today, and is now sitting loaded with film (Portra 400) ready to go put it to the test tomorrow.  I'm really pleased with how it looks and feels, film loading seems so much easier than M3, really enjoying seeing those led's, judgement now reserved till I see some results.  Wish me luck.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Boojay

[a.noctilux]

 

Boojay,

...

"The day before the announcement"

 

Which announcement ?

[wlaidlaw]

The M7 seems easy to load until you try a Contax G2, where you just lay the film into the camera, shut the back and it does the rest. When the roll comes to an end, it even rewinds it for you. If only they had made the G2 manual focus, it could have been an excellent camera. You had to be a contortionist to try and lock focus while taking a photo in portrait mode and you could not take photos though windows as the AF would not lock. The proposed G3 with multiple horizontal and vertical AF sensors would have been much better and as for the cancelled G3 digital......

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

Well, with my usual impeccable timing, after some long hard thinking, I purchased a used M7 from a UK Leica dealer - the day before the announcement. It arrived at 5pm today, and is now sitting loaded with film (Portra 400) ready to go put it to the test tomorrow. I'm really pleased with how it looks and feels, film loading seems so much easier than M3, really enjoying seeing those led's, judgement now reserved till I see some results. Wish me luck.

Well, despite my ‘resolution’ of yesterday morning (post 107), and thanks to the philanthropic generosity of a wealthier member of the family, I have secured a (used) backup M7 from Richard Caplan. Additional supplies of slide film and E6 chemistry are on their way. I just love shooting it too damn much, and the stepless shutter of the M7 is the best for the job. Long may these great machines do what they were built for. Edited May 30, 2018 by M9reno

[wlaidlaw]

Well, despite my ‘resolution’ of yesterday morning (post 107), and thanks to the philanthropic generosity of a wealthier member of the family, I have secured a (used) backup M7 from Richard Caplan. Additional supplies of slide film and E6 chemistry are on their way. I just love shooting it too damn much, and the stepless shutter of the M7 is the best for the job. Long may these great machines do what they were built for.

 

Well done!

[pico]

The M7 seems easy to load until you try a Contax G2, where you just lay the film into the camera, shut the back and it does the rest. When the roll comes to an end, it even rewinds it for you. If only they had made the G2 manual focus, it could have been an excellent camera.

 

That is like wishing your girlfriend was, in fact, a girl.

[Boojay]

Which announcement ?

 

Well apologies if I've read it wrong - whatever, when I started reading all the posts, in various forums, labelled as this one, M7 now discontinued,  I did mutter "bugger" - done it again, to myself!   I had been looking for a late seriel number M7, the one I have bought is 3059.... so just hoping it has a few years left in it yet, and that Leica will have enough parts around if the worse happens.

[a.noctilux]

I check the "M7 news" from Leica site almost everyday since the rumour.

 

Wishing long life to M including M7.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

[../] I had been looking for a late seriel number M7

 

It would be an honor to acquire the very last M7. Can one reserve that camera from Leica?

OH, Leica if we can, I would be honored to have the last M7! Dinna vorry, I'm old with lots of money and

can pass it back to you upon my demise. If I can remember.

Edited May 30, 2018 by pico