Leica M7 now discontinued

[Anbaric]

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Yes, but is buying at this point throwing good money after bad?

 

I guess if money is an object, a new M7 might not be the most sensible purchase in any case - the depreciation is pretty fierce. One UK dealer currently has a new M7 for £3650, and a secondhand one in 'Exc++' condition for £1400.

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[M9reno]

Thanks.  I agree it's debatable whether buying new vs used in this case is worth a £2k premium.

 

I guess partly it might come down to the length of the warranty on a (UK dealer sourced) used M7, versus a new M7.  Six months, say, versus one year?

 

Plus buying a used M7 gets you in the tedious business of finding out whether it has updated DX reader, MP viewfinder, etc.

 

Then there's the added point that you know somewhat more what you are getting when you buy new.  And if it goes for a full year without showing problems, it's unlikely (fingers crossed) to start misbehaving in the medium term...

 

But then again, there is that £2k premium... 

[ianman]

Discontinued or not, you'll still get the warranty (2 years isn't it... well until March 2019 anyway) if you buy new. And I believe there is an EU law stating that a manufacturer has the obligation of supplying spare parts (and support?) for 10 years after a product is discontinued... but this is just something I heard a few years ago, so it could very well be wrong... needs checking. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by ianman

[wlaidlaw]

If you buy from a decent dealer who knows their Leicas, they will be able to tell you if an M7 has the optical DX reader and MP VF. I asked Ffordes when I bought mine and they could answer yes to both. Notwithstanding the optical DX reader, you still have to give the M7 the special "technical tap" on the heel of your hand from time to time, to get the DX reading correctly   - it will flash the LED's in the VF if the read DX does not match your preset ISO. For the upgraded VF, just point it at a bright light and if the RF patch disappears or flares out totally, then you have not got an updated VF. Leicagoodies do a filter which reduces the flare with an ND filter over the RF window. I actually prefer a small piece of yellow or orange cut from a piece of gel, to give the same effect as using the OKARO/ORAKO filters on my Barnack Leicas. 

 

Wilson

Edited May 28, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[wlaidlaw]

Discontinued or not, you'll still get the warranty (2 years isn't it... well until March 2019 anyway) if you buy new. And I believe there is an EU law stating that a manufacturer has the obligation of supplying spare parts (and support?) for 10 years after a product is discontinued... but this is just something I heard a few years ago, so it could very well be wrong... needs checking. 

Ian, 

 

This came up when M8 LCD's became unavailable to replace failing ones with the "coffee stains". I think there is some sort of get out clause along the lines of "subject to availability and the manufacturer making a reasonable effort to alternative source parts". 

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

Thanks, both.

 

The ideal situation would be to find a used one with serial over 3 xxx xxx.

 

Most that I can find are from the messy 2002-3 era when electronic faults were being reported by early users (2 7xx xxxx- 2 8xx xxxx, etc.).

[stephen.w]

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If true, it's a strange way to communicate with one's customers: through rumour sites and the holdings of third party retailers.

 

A few years back I ordered a M7 through the a la carte program. I see that one can still do so (for now): https://a-la-carte-configurator.leica-camera.com/?lang=en&DEF=definitions_UK

 

It's also still listed on Leica's website: https://uk.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M7

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks, both.

 

The ideal situation would be to find a used one with serial over 3 xxx xxx.

 

Most that I can find are from the messy 2002-3 era when electronic faults were being reported by early users (2 7xx xxxx- 2 8xx xxxx, etc.).

 

The huge majority of those will have been sorted by now. I was trying to see if I had a record of the serial number of the dreadful original one I had but I can't find it, to warn folks off it    The upside of those earlier ones is that they will have been soldered with lead solder. 

 

Wilson

Edited May 28, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[elcanada]

The M7 is a very well-designed camera, but it was introduced about 10 years too late to make a difference to Leica sales.

 

I had a beautiful a la carte M7 made when the program was first announced. I found the camera unreliable -- the shutter release would lock up unexpectedly.

[altphoto]

with the end of the m7 and the problems in the future for service I'm would know or someone know which m camera's are still being serviced in wetzlar?

[wlaidlaw]

The M7 is a very well-designed camera, but it was introduced about 10 years too late to make a difference to Leica sales.

 

I had a beautiful a la carte M7 made when the program was first announced. I found the camera unreliable -- the shutter release would lock up unexpectedly.

 

My first M7 did this about 6 or more times a day and you had to jiggle the rewind lever and wind on lever to release it. Four visits to Leica UK made it little better, so I gave up with it and got my money back. My more recent one, albeit still a late 2002/early 2003 camera, has now behaved impeccably since I got it (about 20+ rolls ago). I don't know if it is because it winds on more firmly with the Motor-M, which I leave on all the time.

 

The Motor-M is a rather subtle device and near silent on low speed (1 fps) wind in contrast to the quite violent M4-2 Winder (3 fps), where the whole camera writhes in your hands when it is running, with loud clacks and whirrs. You can actually feel the casing of the winder distort with the torque of its electric motor. 

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

The huge majority of those will have been sorted by now. I was trying to see if I had a record of the serial number of the dreadful original one I had but I can't find it, to warn folks off it    The upside of those earlier ones is that they will have been soldered with lead solder. 

 

Wilson

Around when did lead soldering stop?

[wlaidlaw]

Around when did lead soldering stop?

 

1st July 2006

[M9reno]

1st July 2006

Wow - that’s pretty exact, thanks!

 

Unfortunately, it means that my current M7 (3 5xx xxx), bought in 2016 but perhaps assembled years earlier, is past that cut-off.

 

I guess any ‘new’ M7 bought today has likely been sitting in a box for a long time... something to think about when considering the detriments of not ‘exercising’ any stored camera.

[Reciprocity]

I was offered a new and unused Platinum M6TTL anniversary kit with the matching Summilux 50 V.3 at a very good price. Did I buy it? No because a camera which has been sitting unused for 20+ years is highly likely to develop circuit card problems and then you are totally stuck. I bought an M7 instead, on the basis that it was still in production

How on earth are you “totally stuck” with a camera that will work perfectly in its mechanical role if the internal meter goes out? This is why the M7 has never-ever been on my radar of interest, if the electronics go out then you truly are totally stuck until it gets repaired.

 

Heck, I even took the batteries out of my M6 TTL because the LED’s are too distracting. Personally I am fine with no meter in my M6TTL, I have been doing this long enough to nail the right exposure by feel.

[wlaidlaw]

Wow - that’s pretty exact, thanks!

 

Unfortunately, it means that my current M7 (3 5xx xxx), bought in 2016 but perhaps assembled years earlier, is past that cut-off.

 

I guess any ‘new’ M7 bought today has likely been sitting in a box for a long time... something to think about when considering the detriments of not ‘exercising’ any stored camera.

 

It really depends whether Leica made the electronic circuitry up to a standard or down to a price. The classic example of this is Quad audio equipment where under the control of the founder, Peter Walker, the very best components money could buy were used, which contributed to their renowned longevity. Under the new far eastern owners, price controls came in and the quality dropped drastically, so that the company rapidly lost its reputation for equipment that lasted forever. The Quad 33/303 amplifier I bought in 1967 worked perfectly until 2003 and I still managed to sell the remnants on eBay. The Quad 77 I bought in 1999, was dead by 2010 and had had to have a complete rebuild in 2006. The difference in longevity of top quality condensers and cheap ones ranges from a couple of years to 25 years or more. I have a friend, now retired, who was an engineer on satellite design and construction. I used to insure the life of the transponders communication satellites, so their longevity was of considerable financial interest to me. The people who design those, go into the life of every single component as a transponder worth millions, can fail from a single resistor costing pennies. One would hope that a company selling a hyper-premium product like Leica would behave similarly but sadly, I doubt it. 

 

Wilson

[Lanark]

What I find frustrating is that I see Leica discontinuing practical cameras, while remaining happy to produce extremely low production runs of "special editions" aimed at collectors. It is yet another signal that people who rely on the M series for serious photography are very far from being Leica's priority.

I think Leica are a company which is very aware of the used market values, many buyers justify paying the high price for a Leica by the knowledge that the resale value tends to be good and so the cost of ownership may actually be fairly low when you eventually sell.

If M7 sales and used prices have been trending lower because of real or percieved longevity concerns, then it makes sense to halt production and limit supply. All other things being equal we should see the used value of an M7 start to creep upwards over the next few years preserving the value of the brand.

 

The other possibility which no-one seems to be considering is that they have a sucessor planned? M-7 anyone?

[pico]

How on earth are you “totally stuck” with a camera that will work perfectly in its mechanical role if the internal meter goes out? This is why the M7 has never-ever been on my radar of interest, if the electronics go out then you truly are totally stuck until it gets repaired.

 

I wonder if the shutter's electronics could be modified to allow all speeds likely using the batteries - bypassing auto exposure.

Edited May 28, 2018 by pico

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[IkarusJohn]

I guess Leica is in an unusual position, where they are now marrying beautifully constructed, fully repairable and very expensive analogue technology (like a rangefinder design from the 50s) to what may be short-lived electronics. You might reasonably expect any mechanical Leica to outlast you - spending 2 months salary on a camera can more easily be justified if you can use and maintain it for the rest of your life. But you can't make this assumption about any camera that depends on electronics to operate. This problem is particularly acute for the digital Leicas, of course. The rangefinder in an M9 is probably as maintainable as the one in an M4, but the original sensor may self-destruct after a few years (and Leica has stopped replacing them for free, so the supplies are probably running down).  A 12 year old Digital-Modul-R probably still works if you can power it up, but where can you buy the batteries?

It was for exactly that reason that I bought an M-A (on the trade in) when my M9 developed corrosion.

[Guest]

Within the last month I have had to send my Sekonic 308 off for warranty repair after it, without any prior symptoms, refused to turn on. Fast service? Sure. Free? Sure. But I intend re-train my eye to determine exposure and fall-back to the latitude of modern film stocks to get an image. Should also learn the EV business on my wife's Weston meter.

 

Willeica's remark about consumer electronics is correct, and a wake up call, as is Leica's expending resources for things as simple as broken lens release buttons. Or neck strap lugs.

Yep, In fact I'm just about to send in my 1954 M3 to Wetzlar for a CLA and replacing the buddah ears that have worn thin, $80 each though, Leica did go a get a whole bunch made some years back.