KE-7A

[pico]

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What's with this KE-7A model? Sure it is collectable, but is it more useful somehow?

 

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[TomB_tx]

According to Erwin Puts the KE-7A (for US military) had a winterized shutter for extreme cold operation, and special body sealing against dust, etc. They also made the Elcan lenses for it.

I expect the shutter was required to function to -50F. (As a draftee I assisted acceptance testing of some army equipment in the environmental chamber at Elgin AFB just prior to that time, and it had to operate from -50 to 150F as I recall.)

[adan]

Laney (Leica Collectors Guide) says -20 degrees (not specified F or C, presume F). Tough black chrome industrial finish when most consumer M4s were still black paint. Special engravings, of course. Otherwise, functionally, just another M4. 550 made, 460 actually acquired by US military, remainder released to favored dealerships after the contract expired.

 

Of more interest is the Elcan 50mm f/2 paired with each body. Four elements, with no cemented glass*, again for temperature reasons (less chance of cracking with expansion/contraction) but also to make the lens more shockproof and less vulnerable to blast effects - the milspecs issued for the contract favored survivability over performance.

 

Size about halfway between a 50 'cron and a 35 'cron (~50 f/2.5 Summarit-sized?). Focus scale marked only in feet (US military ca. 1972 didn't want none of that pinko-commie "meters" stuff ). Weirdly, a few pictured have the aperture ring operating backwards from normal Leica practice - f/2 on the right, f/16 on the left. For operational "muscle-memory" compatability with the Nikon SLRs also issued by the military? Most also seem to have a "semaphore tab" for moving the aperture ring, as in the V.2 35 Summicron (designed at the same time - 1969 - and also a design with two fewer lens elements than its predecessor).

 

Thorsten Overgaard has a short note and pix on the Elcan at the bottom of this Summicron Rigid page: http://www.overgaard.dk/leica_M4_50mm_summicron-M_20.html

______________

 

*thus not related to the 50mm f/3.5-f/2.8 Elmar designs or other Tessar types. I presume the Elcan performance was at least as good as the 50 f/2.8 - Walter Mandler (per Laney) rated it as between the Summicron and the Summitar.

[wlaidlaw]

There is a KE-7 for sale on Fleabay at the moment at a not unreasonable price but with a degraded but probably repairable Elcan lens. Does the design of the lens have any similarities with the Summicron-C 40mm which has 4 groups (albeit 6 elements with two cemented pairs)? I assume the shutter spindles must be on lubricant free ball races and the coating of the curtains a low temperature resistant synthetic. 

 

Wilson

 

PS eBay link here if anyone wants to look https://goo.gl/VbySeF 

Edited May 19, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

Leaving aside what this camera can do if one wanted to use it, these cameras have become a form of 'tradable currency', sometimes sold in the original delivery bag with x-rays to show what is inside.

 

https://www.digitalrev.com/article/usd45-000-for-a-rare-unopened-leica-ke-7a-camera-kit

 

Lars Netopil knows a bit about the Elcan products and I am sure that he could answer any questions, particularly about differences between the 50mm lens and the Summicron.

 

William

[Pecole]

Just to add images, here are the ones I have in my archives of serial no 1294910 ( I also had nº1294776).

The one illustrated was like new, but its Elcan f/2 50mm 276-0017 came without shade.

Serial nº1294776 was the military version with the engravings

FSN 6720-165-7115

CONT: F42600-71-C-2429

US

under the serial, and its Elcan 276-0226 had a screwing-in shade marked C42-LS.39F.

My notes add that Lager II illustrates civilian versions nº1294947 and 1294996, and military version nº1294521, as well as a nº1294974 wrongly engraved "STILL PICTUPE". Elcan lenses serials quoted by Lager are 276-0001 and 276-0498.

 

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[wlaidlaw]

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Just as well it has those engravings on it, otherwise a recruit might inadvertently go and use one as a hammer. 

 

Wilson

[adan]

 

Does the design of the lens have any similarities with the Summicron-C 40mm which has 4 groups (albeit 6 elements with two cemented pairs)?

 

Nope - the Elcan 50 is a nonsymmetrical three elements |aperture| one element, while the Summicron-C is a classic symmetrical double-gauss (three elements |aperture| three elements).

 

If one squints really hard, and changes the thicknesses and curvatures of the elements, it might just possibly resemble a stubby version of any of the following: 135 f/4 Elmar (1960), 90 Elmarit last version (R/M), or, splitting the first element in twain, the 3-Element 90 Elmar collapsible (1964).

 

But in reality, it is sui generis. The optical diagram is shown in the Overgaard page I linked to previously.

[wlaidlaw]

Nope - the Elcan 50 is a nonsymmetrical three elements |aperture| one element, while the Summicron-C is a classic symmetrical double-gauss (three elements |aperture| three elements).

 

If one squints really hard, and changes the thicknesses and curvatures of the elements, it might just possibly resemble a stubby version of any of the following: 135 f/4 Elmar (1960), 90 Elmarit last version (R/M), or, splitting the first element in twain, the 3-Element 90 Elmar collapsible (1964).

 

But in reality, it is sui generis. The optical diagram is shown in the Overgaard page I linked to previously.

 

Thanks Andy. Someone needs to add a lens diagram for the Elcan 50 updating the forum Wiki but I am not convinced that it is being kept up to date. I told Andreas about a couple of minor errors I spotted on Leica part numbers and he was not sure if anyone was updating it now. I think it may have been Carsten once upon a time. 

 

Wilson

Edited May 19, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[TomB_tx]

A requirement for operation to -20F doesn't sound like it is very severe. The Asahi operating manual for the 1960 Pentax S3 (and S1) states, "Hot temperatures above 120F and low temperatures below -55F will affect shutter performance."

I know in the mid '60s I used a Pentax for hours in temps down to -30F, and it never missed a beat. A friend used his M2 Leicas in the same conditions. We didn't keep them under coats, as they would fog up, so it was better to let them stay at the cold ambient until we had to come inside, when we'd wrap them and let them warm slowly. Of course, these were meterless cameras with no electronics.

[pico]

Just as well it has those engravings on it, otherwise a recruit might inadvertently go and use one as a hammer. 

 

Wilson

 

IF he can read!

 

I have finally decided not to buy it. The winning bid might be interesting.

Edited May 19, 2018 by pico

[wlaidlaw]

A requirement for operation to -20F doesn't sound like it is very severe. The Asahi operating manual for the 1960 Pentax S3 (and S1) states, "Hot temperatures above 120F and low temperatures below -55F will affect shutter performance."

I know in the mid '60s I used a Pentax for hours in temps down to -30F, and it never missed a beat. A friend used his M2 Leicas in the same conditions. We didn't keep them under coats, as they would fog up, so it was better to let them stay at the cold ambient until we had to come inside, when we'd wrap them and let them warm slowly. Of course, these were meterless cameras with no electronics.

 

Tom, 

 

I am surprised that the natural latex coating on the shutter curtains did not crack. I believe that synthetic polybutadiene rubbers were first found to work much better in low temperatures, during the German invasion of the Soviet union in 1941, although the adoption of synthetic rubber had been forced on the German economy of the time by the allied blockade and it was a fortuitous discovery. I don't however think synthetic coatings of the cotton shutter blinds were use until part way through M6 production, although my source for this information is not 100%. Anyone else got more definite information? 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

IF he can read!

 

I have finally decided not to buy it. The winning bid might be interesting.

I have just bought a black M4-P with M4-2 motor, MR-4 meter and Leitz Canada 90mm Summicron, all for £750 including postage. Even if a lens service and CLA are required it is still very good value. Leica film camera prices in France are very low. I think some folk were put off by non-matching chrome base plate but as I happen to have a black spare (for my M7), it is not a concern to me. 

 

Wilson

[pico]

I have just bought a black M4-P with M4-2 motor, MR-4 meter and Leitz Canada 90mm Summicron, all for £750 including postage. Even if a lens service and CLA are required it is still very good value. Leica film camera prices in France are very low. I think some folk were put off by non-matching chrome base plate but as I happen to have a black spare (for my M7), it is not a concern to me. 

 

Wilson

 

Braggart! Seriously, good for you!

I shall refrain what I paid for a black M2.

Best

Pico

Edited May 19, 2018 by pico

[Gobert]

I have just bought a black M4-P with M4-2 motor, MR-4 meter and Leitz Canada 90mm Summicron, all for £750 including postage. Even if a lens service and CLA are required it is still very good value. Leica film camera prices in France are very low. I think some folk were put off by non-matching chrome base plate but as I happen to have a black spare (for my M7), it is not a concern to me. 

 

Wilson

Congrats, this is an extemely good purchase.

[willeica]

I have just bought a black M4-P with M4-2 motor, MR-4 meter and Leitz Canada 90mm Summicron, all for £750 including postage. Even if a lens service and CLA are required it is still very good value. Leica film camera prices in France are very low. I think some folk were put off by non-matching chrome base plate but as I happen to have a black spare (for my M7), it is not a concern to me. 

 

Wilson

 

You did well with that lot, Wilson. Some people say that the M4-2 winder is clunky, but I find it works well with either the M4-P or the M4-2. The main issues are its size and weight when attached to an M+lens. I have Canadian 90mm Summicron and while it is a bit 'out' as regards rangefinder focus on a digital M where tolerances are small, it is fine with film Ms or with a digital M with EVF.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

On being sent better photos, I have discovered that it is a far less interesting "Thin Tele-Elmarit 90" and not the Canadian Summicron 90 I had been told. I did not have the heart to knock anything off the price, as it is an estate sale, it is still a real bargain and I think the seller needs the money. I will probably sell the Tele-Elmarit, as I already have the better Elmarit-M 90 and I don't need both. I am tempted to sell both my Summarit 75/2.5 (which I don't like very much) and the Tele-Elmarit 90 and buy a second hand APO Summicron 75, which I would use. 

 

Wilson