Which would you choose: 28mm Elmarit ASPH or 28mm Summilux?

[a.noctilux]

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If I were logic with my lenses's choice, I would not buy lenses since decades.

 

Just to say that logic and/or reasons have nothing to do with "buying Leica lenses".

I admit that the only way to know is "go for it" then see if keep it or go for another ones.

 

For me two leica lenses is not too many.

I use now for M 28mm... Summicron-M , Elmarit-M asph., MATE and the last one Summaron-M ...plus other non Leica lenses .

[Peter H]

You want a Summilux and you’re going to buy one.

 

It has virtually nothing to do with logic, and that’s fine, but would be even better if you could just accept it and be happpy about it. Stop the agonising,

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[a.noctilux]

I'm into street and documentary photography, a one lens one camera guy. I never bring more than one lens out at a time, even when travelling. On occasion I do shoots, both paid and unpaid, mostly portraits. I currently own a 28mm Elmarit ASPH, 35mm Summilux FLE, 50mm Summilux ASPH, 50mm Noctilux f1. I previously owned a 28 Summicron v1 and I often found it uninspiring, lacking some "oomph" and too wide as a day-to-day lens. On most days I grabbed the 35FLE or 50lux over it. Admittedly, I was very raw in terms of shooting 28mm and this was several years ago and I personally feel my photography has shifted in the sense I have started to take a liking towards 28mm shots, especially those with layers and context.

 

Having added the 28mm Elmarit ASPH (11677, v2) not long ago I don't find my kit lacking very much at all. I stitch if I need something wider, and find 28mm plenty wide for me. I use either the 50lux ASPH or 50 f1 for portraits and have no issue cropping. I would love to own a 75lux, having owned an 80lux before and used a 75lux on many occasions. It is my favourite portrait lens without a doubt. However, currently on projects/shoots I stick a 35/50 on my only camera (the M240) and work with that setup throughout the shoot. I feel I can get away with shooting an entire session with a 50mm but can't do the same with a 75mm. Moreover, I don't use 75mm for streets. Its use would be too limited to justify purchasing it, and when I am in a Mandler mood I grab the 50 f1. This said, my ideal a two body setup would almost definitely include a 75lux along with a 28/35mm mounted on the other camera.

 

The current dilemma:

I wish to swap my 28 Elmarit for a 28lux. I wouldn't keep the 28 Elmarit and 28lux at the same time because I don't love 28mm enough to do so. I am very impressed by the photos I've seen shot with the 28lux and don't see it as a lens which competes with my 35lux FLE but one that compliments it. I think a 28-35-50lux ASPH kit is pretty formidable - it is not too bulky, packs a lot of punch and has a rather consistent look. This said, I also have half a mind to not sell the 28 Elmarit but keep it and possibly add the 75lux in the not-so-distant future (especially when I can afford it and a second body). Leaving the 75lux out of the equation for the moment, this is essentially a 28 Elmarit ASPH vs 28 Summilux question. 

 

Pros for Elmarit:

• It is small. Microscopic. I can really feel a difference after shooting a full day with the 35FLE or 50lux and then mounting the 28 Elmarit. In some sense, this adds to the fun-ness of it. I shoot without the hood because the hood makes it disproportionately larger and because the lens is rather flare resistant.

   

  Buying a 28lux would mean me losing the smallest lens I have. This would mean the 35FLE reclaims that mantle and relatively speaking it is quite a fair bit larger. I have shot the 35FLE without the hood and have encountered unwanted flare more often than I like. I hear shooting the 28lux without a hood helps, but the bulk is already there. I am not sure about the flare resistance.

   

• It is high performing and dependable. I don't think I could ask for more in terms of performance.

   

• I see very little difference in shots taken by it and the 28lux in most situations.

   

  This said, the 28lux does shine between 0.7m to 2-3m. I suspect this because of the thinner DOF.

   

• It is more affordable (several times more affordable - it is here I think the 75lux sort of slips back into the equation in the sense I could buy one with the money I don't spend on the 28lux)

Cons for Elmarit:

• 2.8 can be quite slow for me in lower light. I could handhold slower shutter speeds, but given my other lenses are fast lenses, I do feel the difference. It is more noticeable than I imagined.

   

• 2.8 limits DOF play, which can be useful. Being able to choose whether I want to shoot at 1.4 is very liberating. 

   

  At the same time, forcing myself to use f2.8 is also challenging, in a positive sense.

Why not the Summicron?

While smaller than the 28lux, it isn't as microscopic as the Elmarit. And while the Elmarit's images do not inspire me (similar to the 28Cron's images - i.e. lacking "oomph"), it's size does. I love bringing it out. While f2 is fast enough for me, I find it lacks the charm and fun-ness of the Elmarit and the look of the images the 28lux gives.

 

 

What are your thoughts? I would love to hear opinions about what you would do in my shoes and opinions of those of you who have chosen one over the other or are both 28 Elmarit and 28lux users. 

 

 

In your shoes, I'd go for the Summilux-M 75mm first (which is a lovely lens and quite comparable to the Summilux-R 80mm that you owned and appreciate).

 

As side note, I use for decades the two 75/80mm Summilux-M/R and the M one is far more usable for me, a small bit lighter and focussing in range 2-4m is a joy with M RF.

 

Combo as Elmarit-M 28mm asph. plus Summilux 75mm may be used for a while and then you can decide for Summilux-M 28mm or not.

 

Just a thought...

Even if I think that for sort of "same type rendering", I suggest Apo-Summicron-M 2/75mm to complement Elmarit-M 28mm Asph., the Summilux-M 75mm has someting special in it's own.

Edited March 6, 2018 by a.noctilux

[chasdfg]

Better stop introducing ideas...I tried to quell the 75lust, and so far it's going well!

 

In terms of rendering, Mandler glass is my mood glass. They're the magic dust that is sprinkled atop of the masterpiece. Hence, I would prefer the 75lux to the 75 cron, just to make portraits that little bit more special. I needn't have a consistent look with the images in that respect. I tend to associate more modern (Karbe era) lenses with workhorses. They're not sterile per se but they're technically more attuned. They tend to be the lenses of choice for travel or for proper shoots because I know the results and the look -  thus the desire to own the 28-35-50lux combo (this is not to say Mandler glass is not dependable, but I have to be in a particular mood to bring my Noct f1 out).

 

 

I think Leica purchases are mostly heart vs mind decisions. Sometimes they match, like when I went after the 50lux ASPH. Most of the time they cannot be rationalised. But I try anyway, because money is money and its best to think it through. Sometimes we go on chasing glass we will never use because the heart wants what it wants - so agonising can be worthwhile in directing oneself.

 

In your shoes, I'd go for the Summilux-M 75mm first (which is a lovely lens and quite comparable to the Summilux-R 80mm that you owned and appreciate).

 

As side note, I use for decades the two 75/80mm Summilux-M/R and the M one is far more usable for me, a small bit lighter and focussing in range 2-4m is a joy with M RF.

 

Combo as Elmarit-M 28mm asph. plus Summilux 75mm may be used for a while and then you can decide for Summilux-M 28mm or not.

 

Just a thought...

Even if I think that for sort of "same type rendering", I suggest Apo-Summicron-M 2/75mm to complement Elmarit-M 28mm Asph., the Summilux-M 75mm has someting special in it's own.

[Tailwagger]

A few months ago, I concluded there was a totally unjustifiable case to be made for adding, a fast, modern look 28mm to compliment my beloved Elmarit v3 pre-ASPH. After much agonizing, heresy I know, I wound up with a Q.  Figured I could buy a used 'cron if need be and be right around the same total $$$ as an SL. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Tailwagger

[semi-ambivalent]

You want a Summilux and you’re going to buy one.

 

It has virtually nothing to do with logic, and that’s fine, but would be even better if you could just accept it and be happpy about it. Stop the agonising,

Spot on. Charge poster for the fifty minute hour...

[gotium]

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The 28 lux is spectacular. With the 50 cron apo my absolute favorites. Tried the new 28 cron and thought it was a real dog. Yes the lux is heavy, but I can’t seem to leave home without it.

[chasdfg]

Quicker question - those of you who have the new 28cron, how "bad" is the focus shift? From older posts, some members say their copy doesn't have any, some say it's a non issue. 

[dkmoore]

I don't recall seeing/hearing about focus shift issues with either iteration 28 cron. Can you link to where you read that?

[chasdfg]

I don't recall seeing/hearing about focus shift issues with either iteration 28 cron. Can you link to where you read that?

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258071-leica-28mm-summicron-asph-2016-11672-owners-thread/

 

I admit i gathered potential focus shift "issues" from a quick skim of the thread, so I may have misunderstood. In the later pages focus shift doesn't appear to be an issue of contention (in that focus shift is a non-issue). I just wanted to hear from user experience if they've come across it, and the extent of it.

 

Either way may be minor because I've also come across people saying the 35FLE has focus shift, but I've never noticed it in my real world use.

[rramesh]

I found that the best cure for GAS is to take the camera and any of your current lenses and to spend what loose change you have on a holiday. You will definitely add more interesting snaps to your collection.

Edited March 8, 2018 by rramesh

[anickpick]

I own both the Lux and the Cron. Sold the Elmarit.

I tried hard, but could not recognize any focus shift.

The Cron outperforms both the Lux as well as the Elmarit in the outer third of the frame wide open, has a smoother oof rendering than the other two lenses and way less CA than the Lux.

Imo the Cron is the way to go.

I love the Lux on the SL.

Edited March 8, 2018 by anickpick

[harmen]

Having both sounds like a good plan. You’ll find out how much you’ll still use the Elmarit and why you do so only through experience. My own 28 lux helps me make shots I thoroughly enjoy. The elmarit is fantastic to walk around with. The camera and lens easily fit in a hand (mine are big) and are so light weight. Can only imagine what a joy the summaron will be to handle.

[anachronist]

That's what – a $3K question?

If I understand documentary and street photography right, it's all about being at the right place at the right time and speed - not film speed or ISO speed, but focussing and pressing the shutter release at the right time. Most likely you would not shoot at f1.4, maybe at f4, better at f8 to be faster at focussing.

It is also about  shooting candid and not being intrusive and I interpret this as blending in, not standing out. Big glass like the the Lux just stands out IMO - especially with a hood attached.

For documentary and street I'd go with the Elmarit 28 ASPH (and black or silver tape over the brand on the camera) and maybe spend the money you saved on a Q - a great alternative as someone mentioned before.

[LeicaPassion]

For me, the key is how a lens renders an image. Speed, size and weight are secondary. The lux is superior IMHO. I often carry it all day and don't notice its size and weight after a few minutes.

[gotium]

Quicker question - those of you who have the new 28cron, how "bad" is the focus shift? From older posts, some members say their copy doesn't have any, some say it's a non issue.

 

For me it was totally unusable. For a subject at 15 feet or beyond I had a focus shift measured in feet, quite literally. Tried two copies, both new, both the same. Lots of photos of blurred subjects with a sharp background.

 

On top of that, low contrast and muddy details, quite striking when compared side-by-side with the 24 elmarit.

 

Worst M lens I’ve ever used. Sore disappointment and cost me.

Edited March 9, 2018 by gotium

[gotium]

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258071-leica-28mm-summicron-asph-2016-11672-owners-thread/

Either way may be minor because I've also come across people saying the 35FLE has focus shift, but I've never noticed it in my real world use.

My 35 lux FLE also demonstrated clear focus shift, but only on the order of maybe an inch at 10 feet and usually within the range of focus errors. When testing carefully, though, it was clearly real. I ended up getting the 35 distagon as a replacement, as I found its OOF rendering and flat focal plane much more pleasing at wide apertures - and I see no focus shift. It is also $4k less expensive. Edited March 9, 2018 by gotium

[rramesh]

I have the 28 cron (older version). More often that not, it’s my primary lens. I have not observed any visible focus shift in thousands of snaps

 

Maybe someone might see it in a test bench, but in real world usage none.

 

I will never buy any lens based on reports alone.

 

Note also that in forums like this, you will always find a post that speaks badly about a lens, any lens. Don’t base you decision on that alone. Loan, try, use and if it works for you, then buy.

[NigelG]

For me it was totally unusable. For a subject at 15 feet or beyond I had a focus shift measured in feet, quite literally. Tried two copies, both new, both the same. Lots of photos of blurred subjects with a sharp background.

On top of that, low contrast and muddy details, quite striking when compared side-by-side with the 24 elmarit.

Worst M lens I’ve ever used. Sore disappointment and cost me.

Judging by comments like these (seen several) I wonder if there has been a QC problem with the new 28 cron.....??

I have found (my copy on M240 + M-D) no focus shift and frame-wide sharpness as per Jono Slack’s tests and sold my elmarit ASPH V2 immediately.

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[Mark II]

My first copy of the 28mm Summicron (v2) had immense field curvature and strong back focus that was obvious at distances of 10m+ even when stopped down.

 

The second copy is much better. The field of focus is relatively flat, but there is still some back focus at longer distances when shot wide-open. I would like to get it properly calibrated, but as 28mm is the main focal length for a current project I can not currently justify the service time and I am compensating focus manually when needed (which fortunately is not often). I have not seen any evidence of focus shift.

 

On paper (MTF), the 28mm Summicron should be an excellent lens. However, I would rate even my 2nd copy as still the poorest performing Leica lens that I own, and neither image nor manufacturing quality is commensurate with its price tag. I have been tempted to replace it with a 28mm Summilux but, having looked at one, the size/weight, finder blockage and the filter size basically ruled it out.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Mark II