Leica 28mm Summicron ASPH 2016 #11672-- Owners Thread

[stump4545]

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Any owner's of the new 2016 28mm Summcron find any upgrades to the prior 28mm cron asph?

 

Just a spiffier metal lens hood?

 

 

[HQBeatle]

I've updated my summicron 28 to the latest one, not only it has the new hood, but improved the quality of corners and edges.

 

I'm very satisfied with the new lens, even if it was only the revision of the hood, I'd still have got this one.

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[stump4545]

Is the new 28mm cron any sharper around center?

 

Does it handle flare better?

[CheshireCat]

Please specify which camera you guys are using.

Edited March 17, 2016 by CheshireCat

[Tmuussoni]

Ah, yes, I am also dying to know if the 28 Cron #2 has improved wide open performance in the corners with type 240. A comparison would be awesome.  I doubt you see any difference stopped down. I am on the market to get the Cron 28, but after the release of the updated Cron I am kinda back at the point where I left: I just can't decide!    

[jip]

It is optically the same apart from a different coating as far as I know... If it would be a different optical formula Leica would have screamed it of of the rooftops of their plant in Wetzlar. The coating might be better against flare, but I've never had flaring problems with the old 28 summicron. I think people see improvements on their photos just because their brain is trying to justify spending more money for a lens that's optically the same.

[tobey bilek]

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Now we are reduced to putting on a big fat hood and calling it a new design.

 

I have a 24 3.8,  28 2.8 ASPH, 35 ASPH Summicron and do not want a big fat hood.  

[Tmuussoni]

It is optically the same apart from a different coating as far as I know... If it would be a different optical formula Leica would have screamed it of of the rooftops of their plant in Wetzlar. The coating might be better against flare, but I've never had flaring problems with the old 28 summicron. I think people see improvements on their photos just because their brain is trying to justify spending more money for a lens that's optically the same.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Based on latest lenses released by Leica they are clearly designing them for a better performance with thicker filter stacks, e.g. Summilux-M 28 ASPH. And the new trio of lenses released by Leica are also better optimized for digital. Which is no surprising as the classic Summicron  was designed for film. Meaning the new Summicron along with Elmarit ASPH are better optimized for a thicker filter stack in mind. See this thread:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/57393-new-leica-lenses-announced.html

 

The jury is still out for similar comparison with Summicron classic and new version. If I had to guess digital bodies with thicker filter stacks are going to perform considerably better (e.g. Sony A7 series, Leica SL) and the difference with digital M is going to be less but it is still visible. I definitely welcome these new versions with open arms but I am not yet certain if it's worth to pay twice as much for a new Summicron 28 compared to second hand Summicron classic. And maybe they finally got rid of the annoying wobble problem... Improved coatings is also welcome

 

 

[LeicaR10]

Stump4545,   I tested the new Leica M 28mm f/2 Summicron in a Leica Store using their Lens Align.  The two copies I tested showed the 28mm Summicron had focus shift.  I also reported my findings to Stefan Daniels at Leica.   Lloyd Chambers (website) also tested both new 28mm M lenses and found the M 28mm f/2 Summicron had severe focus shift.  Which you could clearly see from his test shot comparisons.  I could also see it in my tests too.  According to Lloyd Chambers, the new 28mm Elmarit also had a slight shift but the DOF covered it.  Erwin Puts wrote the two new 28mm M lenses did not have enough significant changes to warrant purchase. Based on my testing and what they wrote, I bought the 24mm f/3.8 Elmar instead...which is s superb M lens.  What Leica really needs to do is make a M 28mm f/3.4 Elmar with no field curvature, no focus shift, minimal CA, 46mm filter thread, metal threaded hood...all characteristics of the superb M 21mm f/3.4 SEM and 24mm f/3.8 Elmar lenses.  Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

Edited March 17, 2016 by LeicaR10

[stump4545]

Is focus shift mainly an issue for landscape photgraphy?

 

I would take mainly portraits with scenic backgrounds with the new 28mm.

 

Would focus shift be an issue for me?

[lct]

[...] Lloyd Chambers (website) also tested both new 28mm M lenses and found the M 28mm f/2 Summicron had severe focus shift. [...]

 

 

Thanks for sharing. We've got the Ashley's "Boricron", now the Chambers' "Shiftocron"? I'm wary of reviewers finding focus shift on lenses having none (namely 35/2 asph) but i will pospone my order for now. 

[CheshireCat]

Erwin Puts wrote the two new 28mm M lenses did not have enough significant changes to warrant purchase.

 

Did Erwin say on which camera he tested ? I assume he tested on the M240. The new 28/2.8 has been proven to be sensibly better on the SL.

Please provide a link to Erwin's review.

 

Based on my testing and what they wrote, I bought the 24mm f/3.8 Elmar instead...which is s superb M lens.  What Leica really needs to do is make a M 28mm f/3.4 Elmar with no field curvature, no focus shift, minimal CA, 46mm filter thread, metal threaded hood...all characteristics of the superb M 21mm f/3.4 SEM and 24mm f/3.8 Elmar lenses.  Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

 

I can say the 24/3.8 is excellent, however it is almost one stop slower.

Leica is perfectly able to make a 28/2.8 (not 3/4) with the features you cite, but I don't think we should expect them from the new revised lenses, as they are just revisions, not new designs.

[uhoh7]

Is focus shift mainly an issue for landscape photgraphy?

 

I would take mainly portraits with scenic backgrounds with the new 28mm.

 

Would focus shift be an issue for me?

I don't know about the new cron, but focus shift is not obvious real world with the old one, and landscapes are not a problem. At f/8 you have hoge DOF

 

The old ones are down to just over 2K now Mine focuses well WO also:

 

Headgear by unoh7, on Flickr

 

And you can zone focus really well:

Cloud Layer by unoh7, on Flickr

 

Photographers have been dealing with focus shift using rangefinders for 60 years with various lenses, most famous being the 50 sonnars. If it really starts to effect your results, you learn the lens and compensate. At 28 this would be very easy.

 

But Lloyd is the first person I see who thinks it's an issue. There are countless reviews of the 28 cron which say outright: "no noticeable focus shift"

 

These are all the old ones, so again maybe there is something about the new one which makes it act like this. For landscape work the old 28 cron has great edges and corners. I never saw a better 28 for landscape.

Edited March 18, 2016 by uhoh7

[Jeff S]

 I'm wary of reviewers finding focus shift on lenses having none (namely 35/2 asph) but i will pospone my order for now. 

 

 

My 35 Summicron ASPH (not new version) has mild focus shift at f4-f5.6, identical to the sample that Sean Reid tested quite a while ago.  It's really of no consequence, however, in practice and in print, since I know how to deal with it.

 

My 28 Summicron ASPH (also not new version) shows no focus shift.  Both are fantastic lenses already.

 

I wouldn't waste my money on a new version of either lens, each fully capable of wonderful pics.....if I do my job.

 

Jeff

[LeicaR10]

Stump4545 and CheshireCat,  First, for Stump4545, focus shift might not be an issue for you.  I use my M240 M-P and lenses for remote hiking landscape photography too.  I use a S007 system for less strenuous hiking/landscape photography.  I find it annoying when I am using the M lenses with focus shift for close and medium distance with shallow DOF.  Why?  Because I have to remember to refocus the lens each time I change f/stops to account for the shift in focus.  A lens should not do this and many Leica lenses do not and are superb.  I have only really found this to happen in the 28s, 35s and now 50s Lux and APO.  I just sent my two 50s to Leica for calibration along with one of my M bodies.  Last, Unoh7 is correct, if you are shooting f/8...the DOF for landscapes, focus shift won't make a difference.  But if you are shooting portraits etc, and change f/stops while shooting and not refocusing at a shallow DOF..your images will most likely have focus shift at close or medium distance if you don't take it into account by refocusing each time.

 

For CheshireCat, Erwin Puts did not say if he tested the new 28s and I gathered based on his knowledge of the old 28s and new 28s, there is no significant change and didn't feel the updated 28mm lenses were worth money for the upgrade.  (I am looking for the link where he wrote this)  I gathered he was looking at the MTF charts that show no change.  But we all know MTF charts are not pictures and that is the key..."proof in the pudding so to speak".  He has a point except if you are hung up on the big lens hood of the old 28mm Summicron and want the new one for the smaller more practical hood.  I see some people are reporting very good results with the updated 28mm Summicron.  But for me and what I have seen...the updated 28mm is not good enough to warrant purchase, and this resulted in my buying the superb 24mm f/3.8 Elmar lens.  The 24mm works for me...but not the updated 28mm Summicron.

 

IMO, Leica would have been far better off doing what they did with the past M 21mm and 24mm lenses.  They created the 21 and 24 f/1.4 Luxes and a superb 21mm SEM f/3.4 and 24mm f/3.8 Elmar.  Leica just created a new M 28mm f/1.4 Lux and should have dropped the 28mm Summicron and Elmarit and replaced it with a superb 28mm f/3.4 Elmar and eliminated all the issues that those two lenses and saved production money by down sizing the M line by 1 product.  I am surprised they didn't do that but I suspect they are busy bees making new SL lenses etc and could only muster making minor "updates" due to resource constraints. 

 

Last, as for the 24mm f/3.8, 1 stop increase, IMO it makes no difference with the improved/improving digital sensors where you can shoot at higher ISOs.  For my landscape photographs, I need a flat field, no focus shift, minimal CA type lens.  The 21 f/3.4 and 24 f/3.8 M lenses do that, but I wanted it in a 28mm and even better a 35mm f/3.4 with the same characteristics.  Maybe one day, Leica will make lenses like this for us.   Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

[lct]

 I find it annoying when I am using the M lenses with focus shift for close and medium distance with shallow DOF.  Why?  Because I have to remember to refocus the lens each time I change f/stops to account for the shift in focus.  A lens should not do this and many Leica lenses do not and are superb.  I have only really found this to happen in the 28s, 35s and now 50s Lux and APO. e lens.  The 21 f/3.4 and 24 f/3.8 M lenses do that, but I wanted it in a 28mm and even better a 35mm f/3.4 with the same characteristics.  Maybe one day, Leica will make lenses like this for us.   Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

 

Bit surprised at what you say. None of my 21/3.4 asph, 24/3.8, 28/2, 28/2.8 asph, 35/2 asph, 50/1.4 asph nor 50/2 apo show significant  focus shift i must say. I've posted a couple of pics elsewhere about the 35/2 asph (http://tinyurl.com/jf86be4) but i could have done the same with the other lenses on my M8.2, M240 and Kolari mod A7s bodies. Are you sure your lenses have been calibrated for digital? Just curious. BTW Wetzlar told my dealer that « for 28/2 and 28/2.8 lenses, little changes have been made to the optical formula (changes in the position of lens elements) so that contrast and resolution are enhanced when these lenses are used on digital bodies. When comparing the new lenses to the previous one on M, SL or Sony bodies, detail and contrast rendition are better, especially in the corners ». FWIW.

[LeicaR10]

Ict,  Thanks for your reply.  I never said my Leica M 21mm f/3.4 or 24mm f/3.8 lenses had focus shift.  These lenses work superbly on my M240 M-Ps.  

 

I do have a new 50mm APO and new 50 Lux both have back focus shift and were sent to Leica Germany for calibration with one of my M bodies.  Most recently, I tested at a Leica Store, two updated 28mm Summicrons each to two different M240 M-P bodies...both had focus shift...I didn't buy it.  Lloyd Chambers found the same issues with his copies per his website.  Same goes for the 35mm Summicron...focus shift at f/4-5.6...didn't buy that one either. Sean Reid (Reid Reviews) is about to publish his tests for the two updated 28mm M lenses.  So maybe he will have different findings.  For me, lenses that focus shift need either calibration or simply a design flaw and for my type of pictures, I can't accept that along with excessive field curvature.  For other people, these flaws mean little to nothing to them and that is OK.  I see some people are reporting good results for the updated 28mm Summicron and that is great.  But when I spend $4K+ on a lens, it needs be significantly improved and as I have seen myself, Lloyd Chamber and Erwin Puts has said...buying the updated 28mm Summicron lens isn't worth it.  IMO, they are correct. 

 

Thanks again for you reply.  r/ Mark 

[uhoh7]

He has a point except if you are hung up on the big lens hood of the old 28mm Summicron and want the new one for the smaller more practical hood.

Untitled by unoh7, on Flickr

 

I have several hoods for the 28 Cron. I never use the original.

 

My 35 Summicron ASPH (not new version) has mild focus shift at f4-f5.6, identical to the sample that Sean Reid tested quite a while ago.  It's really of no consequence, however, in practice and in print, since I know how to deal with it.

 

My 28 Summicron ASPH (also not new version) shows no focus shift.  Both are fantastic lenses already.

This has been the general view, I think. The 35 asph was often reported to have some mild focus shift, which was greatly lessened by the FLE: check me on this if I'm mistaken.

 

It's sounding like the new 28 cron might have an issue, as R10 says he saw some too. That's very surprising, if true.

Edited March 18, 2016 by uhoh7

[gpwhite]

Ict,  Thanks for your reply.  I never said my Leica M 21mm f/3.4 or 24mm f/3.8 lenses had focus shift.  These lenses work superbly on my M240 M-Ps.  

 

I do have a new 50mm APO and new 50 Lux both have back focus shift and were sent to Leica Germany for calibration with one of my M bodies.  Most recently, I tested at a Leica Store, two updated 28mm Summicrons each to two different M240 M-P bodies...both had focus shift...I didn't buy it.  Lloyd Chambers found the same issues with his copies per his website.  Same goes for the 35mm Summicron...focus shift at f/4-5.6...didn't buy that one either. Sean Reid (Reid Reviews) is about to publish his tests for the two updated 28mm M lenses.  So maybe he will have different findings.  For me, lenses that focus shift need either calibration or simply a design flaw and for my type of pictures, I can't accept that along with excessive field curvature.  For other people, these flaws mean little to nothing to them and that is OK.  I see some people are reporting good results for the updated 28mm Summicron and that is great.  But when I spend $4K+ on a lens, it needs be significantly improved and as I have seen myself, Lloyd Chamber and Erwin Puts has said...buying the updated 28mm Summicron lens isn't worth it.  IMO, they are correct. 

 

Thanks again for you reply.  r/ Mark 

 

Lloyd is a skillful reviewer, but I would suggest that you take his findings in with a perspective about his business model. 

 

I am not sure, based on what Puts has written, that a truly compact f/2 28mm is possible without some focus shift at one of the largest apertures. The heftier 28mm Summilux, however, will check every box on your list but two, based on what I read in your earlier post. The Summilux, like either old or new 28mm Summicron, will deliver plenty of CA to be simply removed in pp (1). And, the size and bulk of the Summilux are quite noticeable compared to the Summicrons, but it is a joy to focus critically using its larger girth. Images from the Summilux at any setting or distance are just beautiful and smooth-- none the focus shift that worries you.

 

(1) Posts on this forum suggest that a trade-off in WA design of Leica's petite M lenses is between curvilinear distortion and CA, but the latter is so easily remedied that the former is the main goal for correction in the optical design.

 

Surprising about your AA 50 problems, as Lloyd and I both found our lenses flopped forward in field of focus f/2 ~ 2.8, and then predictably backwards. I leave my lens at f/2.4.

 

But if you want a 28mm partner for your wonderful Elmars, I would suggest testing out the Summilux Meisterstueck.

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[LeicaR10]

For Uhoh7 and Gpwhite:  First, thank you both for your comments.  To answer Uhoh7, the 35mm Asph you referred too should be the 35mm f/2 Summicorn Asph lens.  It does exhibit mild focus shift. The 35mm f/1.4 Summilux FLE also exhibits some focus shift but not as much as the previous 35mm f/1.4 Summilux.  Some people had no issue with the old Lux, some did.  Leica made a version a FLE to address the issue.  The 35mm Summilux FLE has a field curvature issue that again, some have no issue, others have an issue.  Hope that helps.

 

For Gpwhite:  Thank you for the suggestions on the Summilux.  For me, the Luxes are too fast and have the optical aberrations you wrote about.  I am more into taking pictures than getting too wrapped up in lens aberrations, but these things do come into my decision making when it comes to purchasing a lens.  In the case of the updated 28mm Summicron, for me, it wasn't worth the expense and found a better Leica M lens solution with the 24mm Elmar. 

 

Last, the 2, 50mm lenses that I sent back for calibration.  The initial 50mm APO production you may recall, had a flare and back focus problem.  I have gone through 2 50 APO previously.  The flare issue was resolved, but this copy developed a back focus issue.  As you may recall, the lens is made with the most demanding tolerances and it could have well been jarred while out hiking.  I don't know.  I know it needs calibration.  No big deal.  Stuff happens.  The new 50mm Lux was a surprise.  After 2 weeks of use, I discovered the back focus issue.  I showed the Leica dealer my images...he agreed...back focus.  Then he admitted, he had 3 other 50mm Lux lenses returned very recently with the same issue.  We suspect a production and Quality Control problem at Leica for that batch of lenses.  In either case, I know it will get fixed right.  It just means, I won't see the 50s and M body for 6-8 weeks.

 

Thank you both for the replies.  r/ Mark

Edited March 18, 2016 by LeicaR10