SL price and new A7III

[geetee1972]

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My dealer is now offering the SL at slightly less than 5000 euro. That is a substantial rebate compared to the original price. Does this mean that something new is coming? I currently have an M-D and I would like the evf for using the noctilux and 28 summilux wide open and I don't like the add-on evf of the M10. Ideally I would want an evf only version of the M. With the recent introduction of the Sony A7iii at less than half the price of the SL + ibis I am tempted to go for the cheaper option even if I am aware of the SL better menus, evf etc. Thought?

 

Thanks, Giulio

 

How do you like the M-D? I love the idea of it, really tempted myself.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

IQ wise nothing in 35mm format beats SL, except M10. If you need 40mp, most likely SL2 will be the camera for you. 

 

 

Ummmm.... No.

 

In the 24MP class the SL is right up there and the lenses are spectacular. But to say nothing beats it is incorrect. Put an Otus on an A7II and it'll be a matter of taste. Put an Otus on a D850 and the SL can't keep up.

 

Certainly the Leica lenses render in a certain way and that may make it the "best" for an individual. But it's a subjective term only.

 

I do need 40MP+ more than occasionally. But the reason I'd get the SL2 isn't because I think it'll have better IQ than a D850 or A7R3. It won't.

 

Gordon

[wildlightphoto]

you don't want leica lens on sony body. trust me. the infinity is not optimize on the new sony body. i tried on A7RIII i tried with couple of M lenses. and the actual infinity focused far from the infinity on the lens. on elmarit 28mm f2.8 is on the 5mtr!. and the field cultivator is quite terrible. the corner sharpness is not good for wide angle lens.

 

 

If the infinity focus is off the adapter might be the problem.  Corner sharpness with wide M lenses on the Sony bodies can be improved with the kolari thin cover glass modification.

 

 

A key difference is that the Sony cameras have IBIS, which is great for old, slow lenses.  Unfortunately, old Leica lenses, particularly wide angle ones, show edge smearing when used with Sony sensors.  So the IBIS and better sensor may not result in a better picture than with the SL.

 

Ignoring for the moment the SL's superb lenses, for those who primarily use longer lenses the IBIS of the Sony will result in improved image quality while the corner smearing effect due to the thick cover glass will be minimized.  OTOH wider M lenses will give you much better image quality outside the central region on the SL vs. an unmodified Sony.

 

Can anyone tell which of these photos was made with the SL and which was made with the a7II?  The same lens was used for both photos.

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[anickpick]

1st photo: Sony

2nd photo: SL

[helged]

 

Can anyone tell which of these photos was made with the SL and which was made with the a7II?  The same lens was used for both photos.

 

 

 

1st photo: Sony

2nd photo: SL

 

 

+1. And the lens is Leica 280 APO-R (I had to cheat though, not wrt the lens, but for the body used in the first and second photo). Based on the jpeg's, I can not see any (significant) difference, but Doug may enlighten us here...

[Chaemono]

I can and Douglas is making a very reasonable and well balanced argument why someone would want to use an α7R II/III over the SL or the M with Leica lenses. I love the α7R III sensor, who doesn’t, but I hate the IQ of the Sony lenses. The Otus 55 is the only lens that does justice to the Sony sensor but that is such an unwieldy combo and one has to be careful not to bend the lens mount while carrying the whole thing around. Too much of a hastle for me.

 

If I couldn’t afford a Leica body I would definitely go with a Kolrari modified Sony. But some people are acting as if it’s rocket science to come up with a 40+ MPx BSI sensor. It’s electronics. Semiconductor competitors eventually catch up as the speed of innovation slows down. This is what is happening right now. The α7R III uses the same sensor as α7R II while TowerJazz will start mass producing FF and MF BSI sensors in a few months. The advantage of using an α7x mod over the SL2 in the future will likely be price and IBIS if one can accept the difference in ergonomics and user interface, and lack of warranty on the Sony due to the modification.

[Giulio Zanni]

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How do you like the M-D? I love the idea of it, really tempted myself.

 

I love it but I can't get consistent results focusing the noctilux and summilux wide open with the rangefinder. My dream would be an M shape/size camera with built in evf and no display in the back, but I doubt it will ever happen...

[geetee1972]

I love it but I can't get consistent results focusing the noctilux and summilux wide open with the rangefinder. My dream would be an M shape/size camera with built in evf and no display in the back, but I doubt it will ever happen...

I think the Evolution of RF mechanism is to go to a true hybrid display like Fuji have done. I am not sure if it’s possible but it would be really cool if you could combine the RF patch with the focus peaking function of mirrorless. That would enable you to get confirmation of perfect focus. I’m not sure how you would do it.

 

 

 

 

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[Chaemono]

This is an update from TowerJazz' Q4 2017 earnings report on the foundry's image sensor business. But I'm sure some are aware of this already.   

 

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.de/2018/02/towerjazz-updates-on-its-cis-business.html

 

"For CMOS image sensor we use the 300 millimeter 65 nanometer capability to develop unique high dynamic range and extremely high sensitivity pixels with very low dark current for the high-end digital SLR and cinematography and broadcasting markets.

 

In these developments, we've included are fab 2 stitching technology to enable large full frame sensors. In addition, we developed a unique family of global shutter state-of-the-art pixels ranging from 3.6 micron down to 2.5 micron to note the smallest in the world with extremely high-shutter efficiency using the unique dual light pipe technology already developed at TPS Go for high quantum efficiency and high image uniformity."

 

[BernardC]

In these developments, we've included are fab 2 stitching technology to enable large full frame sensors. In addition, we developed a unique family of global shutter state-of-the-art pixels ranging from 3.6 micron down to 2.5 micron to note the smallest in the world with extremely high-shutter efficiency using the unique dual light pipe technology already developed at TPS Go for high quantum efficiency and high image uniformity."

 

3.6 Microns would be somewhere around 60 MP in 24x36mm full frame.

Edited March 6, 2018 by BernardC

[Chaemono]

3.6 Microns would be somewhere around 60 MP in 24x36mm full frame.

 

This would make the Sony α7R III sensor a bit dated . But I think this part of the statement may refer to the industrial sensor market. See the excerpt from the Q3 2017 earnings call last November: http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.de/2017/11/towerjazz-technology-update.html

 

The number I've heard is 40 MPx FF body to be announced at this year's Photokina. The only FF camera that makes sense to me for this year is the Q2. And S008 to be released this year and the number I've heard in this respect is 75 MPx. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Chaemono

[Jeff S]

And S008 to be released this year and the number I've heard in this respect is 75 MPx.

That would make for nice marketing....double the MP.

 

Jeff

[blacksinner]

If the infinity focus is off the adapter might be the problem. Corner sharpness with wide M lenses on the Sony bodies can be improved with the kolari thin cover glass modification.

 

 

 

 

Nope its not the adapter, i use the adapter on a7rii as well and its doing fine. You can ready kerockwell review on a7riii as well. You can ready on the leica m lenses on the sony. He also saying something about the new sensor is different.

 

 

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[jaapv]

Ken Rockwell? Seriously?

[indergaard]

I can and Douglas is making a very reasonable and well balanced argument why someone would want to use an α7R II/III over the SL or the M with Leica lenses. I love the α7R III sensor, who doesn’t, but I hate the IQ of the Sony lenses. The Otus 55 is the only lens that does justice to the Sony sensor but that is such an unwieldy combo and one has to be careful not to bend the lens mount while carrying the whole thing around. Too much of a hastle for me.

 

 

Can I ask what Sony lenses you have tried that you feel does justice so the A7RIII's 42 mp sensor?

 

I have been comparing an M10 + Lux 50 ASPH and a A7RIII + Sony/Zeiss 55 1.8 Sonnar lately, side by side, and there is no comparison really... Technically the Sonnar is a far better lens in every way. It's far less prone to flare, it's sharper across the frame, it has just as smooth bokeh, and even more smooth between f/2.8-f/4. Wide open, both lenses exhibit more or less the same amount of CA. The only thing the Sonnar lens falls behind on is vignetting. It vignettes about the same wide open as the Lux wide open, but the big difference is that the Sonnar almost vignettes as much at f/4 as it does at f/1.8. Vignetting at f/4 on the Lux is almost gone. The Lux also has slightly higher contrast, which may not be a good thing for preserving highlights and dynamic range.

 

Detail wise though, there is absolutely no contest. The A7RIII and the Sonnar is exceptional, and the M10+Lux doesn't even come close.

 

Also, a few other things I have noticed is that the A7RIII+Sonnar retains highlights better. At the exact same exposure, and at the exact same place (tripod), with the exact same light, the M10 tends to burn out bright highlights a lot more, while the Sony actually is capable of keeping most of the details these bright highlights intact. And further more, the A7RIII's files are able to recover highlights even further, while with the M10 files, the highlights are more or less unrecoverable.

 

The other thing is that the Sonnar lens, even though it's a slower lens, seems to have a better T-Stop than the Lux. To match exposures between the A7RIII and M10, with exactly the same light, setup, tripod, placement and everything, I have to shoot the Sony at ISO 320 whereas the M10 needs to be at ISO 400 to match the histogram of the Sony. All electronic trickery in the Sony is of course disabled. And I'm comparing the histograms based on the raw file in Lightroom, not the embedded jpeg previews.

Edited May 1, 2018 by indergaard

[lx1713]

Btw which raw developer are you using to compare?

[james.liam]

Interesting assessment. You must recall several things; the Summilux is a 15+ year-old design released originally for film (though by 2004, they had an inkling what was to come next). The Sonnar was specifically designed for the Sony sensor and behaves accordingly. You’re also comparing an image from a 42MP sensor to a 24 and the superiority you perceive might stem from a great lens on a high MP sensor. I’d be more curious comparing the 50 APO to the Sonnar.

 

Down-sampling the Sony images may be a more legitimate comparison and many advantages are likely to disappear.

Edited May 1, 2018 by james.liam