pgh Posted February 17, 2018 Share #341 Posted February 17, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica users owning other cameras + Complete absence of these Leica users who in fact own high pixel bodies asking for high pixel counts in their Leicas (excepting you) = Most Leica users really, really don't care about having more pixels for the kind of photography they shoot with their Leicas. Am I missing anything here? Yea, you are missing something - I'd love to not use my other high mp bodies and just use my M. I personally know a few others that feel this way. At this point, the only reason I own other bodies is for the sensor. I am not a gearhead, I do not like carrying around things. I would happily pare down my whole kit to the M if the sensor were up to it (for both my own larger printed work and my clients' needs), but right now it isn't. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2018 Posted February 17, 2018 Hi pgh, Take a look here Why not more pixels in the M camera?/ 36 MP {merged}. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Martin B Posted February 17, 2018 Share #342 Posted February 17, 2018 Leica users owning other cameras + Complete absence of these Leica users who in fact own high pixel bodies asking for high pixel counts in their Leicas (excepting you) = Most Leica users really, really don't care about having more pixels for the kind of photography they shoot with their Leicas. Am I missing anything here? I am aware that this is a very Leica-brand centered forum, and therefore many here seem to defend the current status quo in cameras to the bitter end without questioning or challenging it. But there is a big world outside of this forum, and it is very obvious from other posts and threads I read elsewhere that Leica shooters are not only shooting only Leica bodies especially since mirrorless came along. It is very clear that also many use a high MP sensor mirrorless camera in parallel to another Leica body or have fully switched brands. Here you won't hear a lot of them since they moved on. Let me ask you: why being so defensive if you are simply fine with the current technology used in your Leica digital camera? Why can't you simply accept that others have other needs and preferences camera-wise than you do? There is no right or wrong - it is just a matter of preference. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted February 17, 2018 Share #343 Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) Yea, you are missing something - I'd love to not use my other high mp bodies and just use my M. I personally know a few others that feel this way. At this point, the only reason I own other bodies is for the sensor. I am not a gearhead, I do not like carrying around things. I would happily pare down my whole kit to the M if the sensor were up to it (for both my own larger printed work and my clients' needs), but right now it isn't. +1: I couldn't have expressed my thoughts better! Edited February 17, 2018 by Martin B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted February 17, 2018 Share #344 Posted February 17, 2018 No. I use other cameras for other purposes (when an M can't be used - so underwater for example where the Sony A7 series provide a lightweight solution, though are a pain to use via their menu system). i have an M to Sony adapter but rarely bother using it - totally different shooting experience and not one that I care for. Here you see how different user experience is: I agree in one point that the Sony menu system takes a steep learning curve to get used to when coming from another brand. But it is just getting used to IMO. Regarding M/E-mount adapter, this is since several years now my most used adapter on my A7R. I have no native E-mount lenses for this camera and only use it with other brand lenses (M, MD, M42, FD, EF, DKL), and I am very happy with the results in the big majority of my lens-camera combinations. I am using Leica M rangefinder for parallel shooting on film with the same M lenses, so I am aware of the pros and cons of each system in regard to viewfinder, focusing etc. The shooting experience with the A7R is different than with a Leica M body, but I like both. Nevertheless, manual focusing with the M rangefinder is still the best IMO - therefore I would love to have this kind of Sony sensor in a Leica M digital camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke_Miller Posted February 17, 2018 Share #345 Posted February 17, 2018 Since I got my 36 mpx Nikon D810 I've taken over eight thousand images with it. All that resolution gives me a lot of flexibility that I don't get with lower resolution bodies and for that reason I will upgrade to the 45 mpx D850 sometime this year. That said, most of my shooting with the D810 is with stabilized lenses so I can avoid having to use higher shutter speeds (and as a result higher ISOs). With a non-stabilized lens I start to see camera movement when shutter speed is less than two times focal length. At ISO 64 the D810 produces spectacular images, but that image quality fades quickly as ISO settings increase. When I use non-stabilized lenses I will normally use one of my lower resolution bodies (like my M-240 or M246) with significantly better high ISO performance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted February 17, 2018 Share #346 Posted February 17, 2018 Mind-boggling (mind-boggling lack of resolution despite more MPx) https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/ https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/ https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9FSKSS/ https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9J3jzS/ http://www.towerjazz.com/prs/2017/1030.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 17, 2018 Share #347 Posted February 17, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am aware that this is a very Leica-brand centered forum ..... Errr. M Forum - Leica, yes obviously, but actually more importantly - rangefinder. I have no native E-mount lenses for this camera ..... You might be surprised how good some are - the cheaper ones that is. My philosophy is now that cameras work most effectively using lenses built to work with the bodies - and this includes in terms of final image 'quality'. FWIW though, using my M rangefinder today, I realise that I still really like the direct vision combined viewfinder. Composition is instinctive and interacts with the greater view offered by this viewfinder system. But its a handheld, pre-set, simple way of taking photographs. I simply don't see why such a system should have to replace other very different cameras simply to gain MPixels. The M system was never intended to replace larger cameras but to offer a small portable quality alternative usable anywhere. If anything I would suggest that sensors with higher low light performance is how the M should progress, not ever increasing MPixels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 17, 2018 Share #348 Posted February 17, 2018 Mind-boggling Indeed. Again, certainly not a set of scientific comparisons, but we do ultimately shoot out the real world and the examples strike me as a reasonable attempt to reflect use under actual conditions. For me, they confirm the wisdom of Leica's decision making in this space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgh Posted February 17, 2018 Share #349 Posted February 17, 2018 Mind-boggling (mind-boggling lack of resolution despite more MPx) https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/ https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/ https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9FSKSS/ https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9J3jzS/ http://www.towerjazz.com/prs/2017/1030.html Not sure how you're going about making your samples, but my prints that I make every week from both cameras tell a different story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted February 17, 2018 Share #350 Posted February 17, 2018 You should ask Sony that because their lenses are a bit sh!t. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpittal Posted February 17, 2018 Share #351 Posted February 17, 2018 You should ask Sony that because their lenses are a bit sh!t. that's why I use Zeiss Batis lenses on my Sonys (astro landscape with A7S) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 17, 2018 Share #352 Posted February 17, 2018 You should ask Sony that because their lenses are a bit sh!t. Well, if you really think that there is no more to be said. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted February 17, 2018 Share #353 Posted February 17, 2018 You should ask Sony that because their lenses are a bit sh!t. Any Sony or Sony/Zeiss lens I have I've always found to be stunningly good. However also extremely large, when I compare my FE 35 1.4 Zeiss to my Summilux 35 FLE and the 85 GM to the 75 Summicron. And yes ... my philosophy of 24Mpx is good enough for me also applies to my A7mkII. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted February 17, 2018 Share #354 Posted February 17, 2018 Errr. M Forum - Leica, yes obviously, but actually more importantly - rangefinder. You might be surprised how good some are - the cheaper ones that is. My philosophy is now that cameras work most effectively using lenses built to work with the bodies - and this includes in terms of final image 'quality'. FWIW though, using my M rangefinder today, I realise that I still really like the direct vision combined viewfinder. Composition is instinctive and interacts with the greater view offered by this viewfinder system. But its a handheld, pre-set, simple way of taking photographs. I simply don't see why such a system should have to replace other very different cameras simply to gain MPixels. The M system was never intended to replace larger cameras but to offer a small portable quality alternative usable anywhere. If anything I would suggest that sensors with higher low light performance is how the M should progress, not ever increasing MPixels. We are simply not agreeing here - this goes only in circles now, so I let it go with this one. I am convinced that Leica M will not stay at 24 MP resolution - and users will upgrade to a better Leica M sensor as soon as it is available (have seen this all before happening as pointed out earlier). Do you work for Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted February 17, 2018 Share #355 Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) Well, if you really think that there is no more to be said.I shoot at the exact same settings with the exact same adjustments in post and have offered to provide the raw files. It’s a leading question (a question that suggests the particular answer or contains the information the examiner is looking to have confirmed) for the readers of this thread. Doesn’t surprise me. The user gets the answer he or she deserves. Edited February 17, 2018 by Chaemono 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgh Posted February 17, 2018 Share #356 Posted February 17, 2018 You should ask Sony that because their lenses are a bit sh!t. You may try for different copies then, perhaps some rough luck. I've found mine to be great when it comes to resolution and sharpness, and I'm mostly using the 55 1.8 and 35mm f/2 on the Rx1RII. Even my old Contax G lenses adapted are quite good. I do prefer the 'character' of the M lenses, but not enough to negate the advantages the other ones offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 18, 2018 Share #357 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) We are simply not agreeing here - this goes only in circles now, so I let it go with this one. I am convinced that Leica M will not stay at 24 MP resolution - and users will upgrade to a better Leica M sensor as soon as it is available (have seen this all before happening as pointed out earlier). Do you work for Leica? Nothing earth shattering in such a prediction. There's no reason to suspect that the past refinements wont continue in future. Leica has increased the pixel count of digital Ms by ~2.5x over the past dozen years. I expect when its appropriate to do so without compromising other aspects of the design, they will do so again. But if you're expecting 40-50MP in an RF body in the next couple of years, I'd suggest that your best hope lies in the rumors around the resurrection of the GS645. Oh, and in my case, no, I do not work for Leica, quite the opposite. Leicas work for me. Edited February 18, 2018 by Tailwagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted February 18, 2018 Share #358 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) I am aware that this is a very Leica-brand centered forum, and therefore many here seem to defend the current status quo in cameras to the bitter end without questioning or challenging it. But there is a big world outside of this forum, and it is very obvious from other posts and threads I read elsewhere that Leica shooters are not only shooting only Leica bodies especially since mirrorless came along. It is very clear that also many use a high MP sensor mirrorless camera in parallel to another Leica body or have fully switched brands. Here you won't hear a lot of them since they moved on. Let me ask you: why being so defensive if you are simply fine with the current technology used in your Leica digital camera? Why can't you simply accept that others have other needs and preferences camera-wise than you do? There is no right or wrong - it is just a matter of preference. It’s posts like this that make Internet forums so undesirable at times. Remember: it’s a camera forum. That’s all. Post a few pictures. Share your experiences. Be kind. Does it really have to be as hard as you’re making it? Posts like Martin’s make me shake my head, roll my eyes, and go elsewhere. Luckily there’s the M10 images thread. That and the other images threads are this forum’s true saving grace. There, I see beautiful pictures, people being kind, and people offering suggestions to each other regarding how to get better at this wonderful craft. Edited February 18, 2018 by mhicks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonescapes Posted February 18, 2018 Share #359 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) But there is a big world outside of this forum, and it is very obvious from other posts and threads I read elsewhere that Leica shooters are not only shooting only Leica bodies especially since mirrorless came along. It is very clear that also many use a high MP sensor mirrorless camera in parallel to another Leica body or have fully switched brands. Here you won't hear a lot of them since they moved on. You may have some wool in your ears. What I said (very explicitly) was: Lots of people on this forum DO use other camera systems, including high pixel sensors (myself included). However, much fewer of them are clamoring to make pixel count the top priority for future improvements to digital Ms. That's not to say we don't want--or won't get--more pixels. That's to say that, given the style of photography that a compact, discrete rangefinder system lends itself to, there simply aren't a lot of people whose first wish for the next iteration of that camera is better performance in the studio, or in types of photography that are always tied to a tripod (action, wildlife, landscape). And these are the situations where pixels matter most. Leica's many-decades-long history in the case of the M is a drive toward the apotheosis of image quality specifically for handheld images with an unobtrusive camera. Don't let the high price tag fool you. That's the DNA of this camera. If you bought it for the reasons that people typically buy the full frame systems that benefit from high pixel count sensors, you're likely to be sorely disappointed with the direction Leica takes future models, as they just don't see the product (nor do most of their users) the way you do. If you're determined to keep shooting on Leica, you should probably look at their other systems (maybe an SL?) as Leica's compass headings with those matches your interests much better. At this point, however, it is clear you've reached your idiosyncratic conclusions and you just want people to argue with about it. Well, to each their own. Edited February 18, 2018 by Lonescapes 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted February 18, 2018 Share #360 Posted February 18, 2018 You may have some wool in your ears. What I said (very explicitly) was: Lots of people on this forum DO use other camera systems, including high pixel sensors (myself included).Maybe you weren’t explicit enough but interesting observation. The Energizer bunny had some wool in its ears and it kept going and going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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