Why not more pixels in the M camera?/ 36 MP {merged}

[Martin B]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Well, in a nutshell, Leica M digital is clearly not for you.

 

When you wrote to Leica what was their reply?

 

This is another invalid statement - I enjoy shooting with several Leica M film cameras and like the rangefinder system. Why should a digital M not be for me - just because I desire sensor tech in the camera which is already out there since years?! Do you think that this is too much to ask? Or do you expect me just to be fine with the status quo? If Leica is smart, they screen this forum sometimes to get a feeling what people mention as potential improvement - what is wrong about this? Why should I write directly to Leica - if they don't move and keep sticking to 24 MP FF it is their problem and not mine (I doubt they will - it is much more likely that they will improve the sensor in the next gen of M and SL series cameras). There are other choices out there - even for me a dream camera still would be a M10 with newer FF sensor tech/more resolution and DR. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Martin B

[mhicks]

I don’t know if this thread is more like a Ferris wheel or carousel but either way, I feel like we’ve chewed some of the same dirt a few times now.

 

It should be settled at this point. If you’re not happy with the quality of photos you get from the M10, don’t buy it or sell it if you own it. Register a stern complaint with Leica and get on with your life shooting photos with superior tech.

 

Wait a few years. The M11 will appear and it will be 36 MP while Sony is up to a gajillion. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

 

Do us a favor and just repost this thread when that time comes around. Substitute 24 for 36. Register the complaint. And again move on to happily shooting superior tech.

[jdlaing]

This is another invalid statement - I enjoy shooting with several Leica M film cameras and like the rangefinder system. Why should a digital M not be for me - just because I desire sensor tech in the camera which is already out there since years?! Do you think that this is too much to ask? Or do you expect me just to be fine with the status quo? If Leica is smart, they screen this forum sometimes to get a feeling what people mention as potential improvement - what is wrong about this? Why should I write directly to Leica - if they don't move and keep sticking to 24 MP FF it is their problem and not mine (I doubt they will - it is much more likely that they will improve the sensor in the next gen of M and SL series cameras). There are other choices out there - even for me a dream camera still would be a M10 with newer FF sensor tech/more resolution and DR.

 

No.

 

It’s not for you because you won’t be happy with it and you asked and keep asking on a forum with M digital users total less than 1% of the users instead of asking the manufacturer. That’s why.

[pico]

So you are saying that every photographer who desires a higher resolution FF sensor has lack of talent???

 

No of course not. Please beware of twisting a conversion  into an argument.

Edited February 16, 2018 by pico

[Tailwagger]

This is another invalid statement - I enjoy shooting with several Leica M film cameras and like the rangefinder system. Why should a digital M not be for me - just because I desire sensor tech in the camera which is already out there since years?! Do you think that this is too much to ask? Or do you expect me just to be fine with the status quo? If Leica is smart, they screen this forum sometimes to get a feeling what people mention as potential improvement - what is wrong about this? Why should I write directly to Leica - if they don't move and keep sticking to 24 MP FF it is their problem and not mine (I doubt they will - it is much more likely that they will improve the sensor in the next gen of M and SL series cameras). There are other choices out there - even for me a dream camera still would be a M10 with newer FF sensor tech/more resolution and DR. 

 

I respect your position and don't doubt your need nor desires though they fail to match my own. But its a fact of life that when purchasing anything, it is rare that any offering fits ones requirements perfectly.  Compromise is inevitable. We all select on the basis of the set of attributes which most closely match our desires. Quite a few on these pages were similarly upset when video was dropped, for example. Some await a new 240, others carry a 4/3s for that purpose. But I suspect that over the past year more than a few have slowly been convinced that although the trade offs made might not have been the ones they'd  have hoped for, they were done thoughtfully and to a purpose.  

 

Personally, I'd like a modern version of my old 1989 E30 M3; lightweight, efficient, agile with steering that actually had some feel to it. But, BMW long ago moved on and no one else seems all that interested in making those sorts of machines anymore, at least not for the US market.  So one is left to spend one's money on the least offensive solution that best matches both need and aesthetic desire.  Am I annoyed and unserved? You bet. And so after many years of loyalty, my response was to stop buying that manufacturers products. 

 

In the RF case, the reality is we should all be pretty damn thankful that Leica has yet to throw in the towel on such designs. Particularly so, given pretty much the rest of the industry did so long before the dawn of digital. But if resolving power is your make or break, it could be time, as a consumer, to throw in the towel and move on.  There can be little doubt that Leica is aware that there are competitors pushing in directions it may not be able to go given the core brief, but my hope is that unlike BMW, they continue to host fast to the original M3 ethic for as long as they possibly can. Contrasting the M10 to the SL/Q/CL/TL even the 240, suggests that indeed that is their mindset, and I for one, thank the gods for that, regardless of the pixel count.  In the case of the M10, it is a brilliant device that allows those so smitten to produce some extraordinary images. If others find it resolving or dynamics too flawed, there certainly are alternatives replete with their own set of annoyances and drawbacks. 

[Lonescapes]

I would buy a 12MP digital M.

[hteasley]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I would buy a 12MP digital M.

Me too. Low light performance would likely be incredible.

Edited February 16, 2018 by LUF Admin
No insults please

[Lonescapes]

I think Leica's actually pretty responsive to customer desire, as much as a company with a very specific marketing niche and customer demographic can be.

 

The M10 isn't some plugging-up-their-ears camera that shockingly failed to include more pixels. It's a response to a lot of digital M users reacting with much less enthusiasm than Leica probably anticipated to the 240. I prefer the 240 out of all the available digital Ms (excepting the Monochrom, in which case I still prefer the 246), because I do like the modern quality of life improvements in these bodies, even if they're implemented in a way that pales in comparison to other mirrorless cameras. And if this makes the body slightly less enjoyable from an ergonomic and aesthetic perspective than classic film Leicas, I don't really care.

 

But I'm in the minority. I think most users really wanted something that went back to the original form factor. And they got it.

 

I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know what Leica sees when they look at their market and ask themselves about megapixels, but I suspect they don't see it as a priority for the overwhelming majority of digital M users, and I suspect they are right.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Lonescapes

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

 running out of reasons for defending the current stagnant tech?

 

You're very welcome to invent better tech. But in the meantime we have pretty much reached whats doable with current technology.

 

[jaapv]

This is another invalid statement - I enjoy shooting with several Leica M film cameras and like the rangefinder system. Why should a digital M not be for me - just because I desire sensor tech in the camera which is already out there since years?! Do you think that this is too much to ask? Or do you expect me just to be fine with the status quo? If Leica is smart, they screen this forum sometimes to get a feeling what people mention as potential improvement - what is wrong about this? Why should I write directly to Leica - if they don't move and keep sticking to 24 MP FF it is their problem and not mine (I doubt they will - it is much more likely that they will improve the sensor in the next gen of M and SL series cameras). There are other choices out there - even for me a dream camera still would be a M10 with newer FF sensor tech/more resolution and DR. 

Well, it may have come to your attention that you appear to represent a very small minority of Leica owners, or even their customer base. Camera manufacturers do not design cameras for individuals, rather for groups of customers.

 

The fallacy in your argument is the point that the technology is not out there for the type of sensor a Leica M needs.

The difference between designing a camera around (the latest) technology and grafting present-day technology into an over sixty-year old design is obvious.

[pgk]

The thing that I find most intriguing about this thread is that the 35mm Leica RF form is now expected to do what much larger medium format cameras did in the past. My M9s are quite capable of producing 30" x 20" prints, the technical quality of which will satisfy all but the most pedantically critical of viewers, and these are only 18MPixels. If we look back at the history of photography and actually try to learn from the past (an unpopular idea it seems) then it is evident that a huge number of wonderful photographs were taken on RF Leicas, many simply because of small form factor and quality lenses. I think that this still applies - the Leica has its place because of its unique characteristics.

 

What it never could do in the past was to compete against larger and more versatile cameras, and IMO it still cannot and should not try to do so. Increasing MPixels will not help it do so either because it will always face competition which outclasses it in terms of specification and ability. Which leaves us with my last question; how many MPixels are enough? Until my M9s fail 18MPixels are sufficient for my RF needs - I have higher MPixel cameras should I need them (very rare in all honesty).

[M11 for me]

. . . and now the new Fuji X-H1 has only a 24mpix sensor too. That mpix count is then not so off the market as one might think. It refers to an APS-C sensor which is after all a difference. But still remarkable.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Alex U.

[Chaemono]

I don’t know if this thread is more like a Ferris wheel or carousel but either way, I feel like we’ve chewed some of the same dirt a few times now.

 

It should be settled at this point. If you’re not happy with the quality of photos you get from the M10, don’t buy it or sell it if you own it. Register a stern complaint with Leica and get on with your life shooting photos with superior tech.

 

Wait a few years. The M11 will appear and it will be 36 MP while Sony is up to a gajillion. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

 

Do us a favor and just repost this thread when that time comes around. Substitute 24 for 36. Register the complaint. And again move on to happily shooting superior tech.

Absolutely right in an ideal world. But no one will do us this favor. We live in a commercial world. So this thread will keep going and going, like the Energizer bunny. And even though in FF systems Leica is not only about the M anymore, the claims how Leica as a company, not just with the M system, is standing still in the digital age will keep coming and coming.

 

To be perfectly clear, Leica is not standing still in the digital age with FF systems. See here: http://www.towerjazz.com/prs/2017/1030.html

 

So, the SL2, likely to come next year but maybe even by the end of this year, will be very competitive with the best FF sensor cameras out there. Sony is countering in optics, of course, by developing G Master lenses.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Chaemono

[Lonescapes]

. . . and now the new Fuji X-H1 has only a 24mpix sensor too. That mpix count is then not so off the market as one might think. It refers to an APS-C sensor which is after all a difference. But still remarkable.

 

I'm over the moon about the XH1, but everyone is being mighty cranky about same sensor same processor. It reminds me of the early era of video game consoles--how many bits is it, etc. People aren't able to grasp that sensor pixel count is just one among many components of what makes a camera. You CAN have a significant upgrade to a system without a sensor upgrade, especially if the sensor was just fine to begin with.

[Chaemono]

. . . and now the new Fuji X-H1 has only a 24mpix sensor too. That mpix count is then not so off the market as one might think. It refers to an APS-C sensor which is after all a difference. But still remarkable.

Remarkable that the M10 was introduced with 24 MPx before the Fuji X-H1 came to the market?

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/

[Martin B]

You're very welcome to invent better tech. But in the meantime we have pretty much reached whats doable with current technology.

 

The better tech is already out there.....

[Martin B]

Well, it may have come to your attention that you appear to represent a very small minority of Leica owners, or even their customer base. Camera manufacturers do not design cameras for individuals, rather for groups of customers.

 

The fallacy in your argument is the point that the technology is not out there for the type of sensor a Leica M needs.

The difference between designing a camera around (the latest) technology and grafting present-day technology into an over sixty-year old design is obvious.

 

Believe me, I was in the same spot in 2012 in Canon forums when Canon decided not to move forward with FF sensor improvements in the 5D MkIII and Nikon on the other hand released the first DSLR with higher MP and DR count, the D800(E). I was told exactly the same what you are saying here: I belong to a small minority desiring higher MP sensors and that the current tech with 22 MP is more than enough. Interestingly the big majority of forum members who said this own now a high MP sensor camera, either the 5DsR or added another brand like Nikon D810/D850 or Sony A7R/II series. The difference is more that there are not many who speak out against a mainstream and brand-addiction in a forum. That's why it is easy to say that there are only a few who want this. But when the tech is being released at some point, all those - including you - celebrate it and see it as competitive advantage. What was said earlier is then rapidly "forgotten". 

 

I also heard the same saying in 2012 that it is "impossible" to build this tech into a smaller camera body - which all went very silent when Sony released the first FF mirrorless high MP camera. It is much more the case that currently camera improvements are done incrementally to cash in as much as possible each time from the consumer (all brands are alike here). Leica simply didn't find it worth it at this point to add a better sensor in the M10 (or the SL). Focus was shown on other improvements which were well advertised for users to see a lot of value in them. 

[Chaemono]

I love better tech.

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9FSKSS/

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9J3jzS/

[Martin B]

Which leaves us with my last question; how many MPixels are enough? Until my M9s fail 18MPixels are sufficient for my RF needs - I have higher MPixel cameras should I need them (very rare in all honesty).

 

Current standard for high MP FF sensors is 42-50 MP and it is rumored that the next models will have 60-70 MP sensors with the same sensor size. The question what is enough is subjective: what is enough for you might be insufficient for another one. I am currently fine with 36 MP and wouldn't upgrade at this point just for a jump to 50 MP for example. But if 60-70 MP comes along, I will certainly look into this. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Chaemono]

Will be playing around with one of those G Master lenses this weekend.

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9FSKSS/

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9J3jzS/