M10 not auto picking frame lines?

[dancook]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Is the M10 supposed to detect the lens and pick the correct framelines? I made an assumption it would - I have 6-bit lenses, another assumption that it might matter.

[jaapv]

In a way, yes. The frameline detection is mechanical, situated in the mount flange.  The camera will show the right frameline pair.

Make sure the lens is mounted correctly, in the "Click". If you hold the button pushed down when mounting, you will over-rotate the lens, which will result in a wrong frameline pair.

The 6-bit coding has nothing to do with the showing of the framelines, but it is linked in the sense that the camera will not accept a frameline-coding mismatch for lens recognition.

[dancook]

In a way, yes. The frameline detection is mechanical, situated in the mount flange.  The camera will show the right frameline pair.

Make sure the lens is mounted correctly, in the "Click". If you hold the button pushed down when mounting, you will over-rotate the lens, which will result in a wrong frameline pair.

The 6-bit coding has nothing to do with the showing of the framelines, but it is linked in the sense that the camera will not accept a frameline-coding mismatch for lens recognition.

 

Thanks

 

Ok I see when I remove the lens, the lever moves pointing 'outwards' then 'inwards' when you attach a lens - and the correct framelines appear. However during my tests just now, I noted one time in 6 changes that it did not point inwards, and the frame lines did not change. I removed and reattached the lens, then it did work.

[Stein K S]

Do you experience a somewhat ¨sticky¨ lever not moving not entirely free? This could also cause this. Se also other thread on this. Seems to occur on some new bodies... and mostly go away through use...

[dancook]

Do you experience a somewhat ¨sticky¨ lever not moving not entirely free? This could also cause this. Se also other thread on this. Seems to occur on some new bodies... and mostly go away through use...

 

Perhaps it might, it's intermittent and I haven't kept on top of keeping a track of what it's doing. But I will consider this in future.

[pgh]

This is a known problem - the sticky frameline selector. I had to send mine in for repair, but that was because I also had other problems. 

[dancook]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

This is a known problem - the sticky frameline selector. I had to send mine in for repair, but that was because I also had other problems. 

 

already went without it for 4 weeks for vertical alignment issue - don't fancy sending it back again :/

[Stein K S]

Mine slowly ¨ losened¨ up... so maybe be patient and see... ;-)

[M11 for me]

Mine slowly ¨ losened¨ up... so maybe be patient and see... ;-)

 

I can actually say the same for mine: It was quite stiff at the beginning and being pushed towards the outside it had the tendency to get a bit stuck. But now that is gone. All by itself.

[amritsg]

Hi everyone,

So my new to me M10 currently without a lens, awaiting my 28 Summaron whilst all my other lenses are too far away from me to gather and test. However, I was playing around with the frame line selector to get used to the new viewfinder and the framelines got "stuck" at 28 framelines. There isn't too much resistance in moving the lever but none other show.

Of course, it isn't really an issue to be stuck with the 28 framelines for now. But I was wondering if anyone had a recommended fix since it seems like it will be awhile before we can get user support (in the UK). I've read above that many people had issues with framelines when a lens is inserted but has anyone had issues with just the lever (no lens mounted) and any recommended fixes?

Thanks!

[PCPix]

IF your problem is the lever sticking: I solved mine by removing the lever, applying a 'tiny' drop of ACF50 lubricant (on the tip of a toothpick) where the rotating shaft goes through into the body. Refit the lever and use a 'tiny' drop of Locktite blue on the thread (also on the tip of a toothpick) and gently re-tighten. Without the Locktite there have been some reports of the lever falling off and getting lost... The flat cover screw can be removed using the correct wrench, if you have, or using a blob of Blu-Tac. It's a very small/fine thread so does not need much force at all. It is a normal right hand thread.

I did this to mine about two years ago and have had no further issues. I think it is a 'bedding-in' mechanical issue with new cameras and once done shouldn't give any further problems.

Edited May 15, 2020 by PCPix

[amritsg]

Thanks very much! This is very helpful - however I completely do not trust myself with doing anything mechanical with it (such as taking it apart). Is there any make-shift way I can lubricate it without taking it out? 

I am assuming it is sticking, as in the lever still moves but the framelines do not change in the viewfinder.

1 hour ago, PCPix said:

IF your problem is the lever sticking: I solved mine by removing the lever, applying a 'tiny' drop of ACF50 lubricant (on the tip of a toothpick) where the rotating shaft goes through into the body. Refit the lever and use a 'tiny' drop of Locktite blue on the thread (also on the tip of a toothpick) and gently re-tighten. Without the Locktite there have been some reports of the lever falling off and getting lost... The flat cover screw can be removed using the correct wrench, if you have, or using a blob of Blu-Tac. It's a very small/fine thread so does not need much force at all. It is a normal right hand thread.

I did this to mine about two years ago and have had no further issues. I think it is a 'bedding-in' mechanical issue with new cameras and once done shouldn't give any further problems.

 

[marknorton]

I am happy that the lever has come back on the M10 - it always seemed pointless cost cutting on the M240 that it was removed. 

[PCPix]

Do the framelines change if you move the lever? It sounds like maybe they don’t - in which case something else (internally) is the problem...

 

[adan]

It doesn't hurt to remember that the M frameline mechanism is a quite complicated chain of parts, reaching from the lens mount and camera front all the way up into the top plate.

Close to 20 moving parts, including springs of tuned "strengths" so that mounting a lens can change the framelines and move the frameline lever - yet the frameline lever can also override that normal mechanism, to display all the various lines sequentially for experimentation (to see if a 50 or 135 would be a better choice than a 90 - without actually having to change lenses.)

It should be noted that the M viewfinder mechanism was such an engineering marvel that it is said the Director of Zeiss-Ikon came over to Ernst Leitz III at photokina 1954 when the M3 was introduced, shook his hand, and said, "You Win!" Zeiss phased out their rangefinders thereafter.

This link shows about half the moving parts (those up in the top plate at the same height as the viewfinder window). See bottom-most image. It does not include: the tab a lens presses when mounted, to change the lines; the external lever; the internal levers that the external lever or tab move; and bellcranks and push-rods that link those upwards to the viewinder.

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Leica/page10.html

Note that the mechanism for digital Ms is generally identical to this film-M mechanism, except that, 1) from the M8 on, a microswitch is added to electronically signal the camera's CPU the position of the framelines (a part of the lens ID system). And 2) from the M240 on, the reflector (right) is replaced with an LED bulb to light up the slits in the frameline masks or stencils.

On top of that, the entire frameline unit (masks/stencils and springs, plus their support and bracket) move diagonally down/right and up/left with focusing, to correct for the 5cm of parallax between the viewfinder and the camera lens.

Lubrication is used in quite a few points in that chain, not just at the lever on the front. And unless one knows what the correct lubricant is (graphite, lithium grease, other grease or fine oil), simply tossing in an anti-corrosion formula is not a good idea. About like substituting brake fluid or transmission fluid for a car's engine oil.

Maybe it will work for a while - and maybe it will eventually gum up and require an even more expensive service, to fix whatever was actually wrong (maybe a stuck or broken spring, or a speck of dust on the thin sliding masks, making them jam) - and also clean up the mess from an amateur's "self-servicing" with the wrong stuff.

Edited May 16, 2020 by adan

[onasj]

A semi-permanent fix to the M10 sticky frame lever problem: fold a standard notecard or cardstock paper in half, with a sharp crease. Cut out an inch x 0.5 inches or so of the notecard at the hinge, so you now have a small rectangle of 2-ply notecard joined at the fold.  If you want to keep the beautiful aesthetics of your M10, you can used black cardstock to do this, which will be barely visible against the black body wrap.

Now slide the Limited Edition M10 Frame Selection Lever Healing Device, hinge first, under the frame selection lever.  It should be tight enough that it takes medium force to slide it under the lever, but not so tight that it requires excessive force or the notecard is buckling under the pressure.  There should be enough friction with the notecard under the lever that frame selection no longer happens when lenses are mounted.

Now gently move the lever back and forth a few times.  Then let it sit a day or three. Finally, remove the notecard and the lever should be in-stuck.  I think it tends to happen when force is directed downward (into the body) on the frame selection lever, which can happen in your camera bag if you have a divider to the left of your mounted lens.

Of course try at your own risk, but this has worked for two of my M10s in the past.

[PCPix]

On 5/16/2020 at 7:34 PM, adan said:

Maybe it will work for a while - and maybe it will eventually gum up and require an even more expensive service, to fix whatever was actually wrong (maybe a stuck or broken spring, or a speck of dust on the thin sliding masks, making them jam) - and also clean up the mess from an amateur's "self-servicing" with the wrong stuff.

Adan, using a miniscule drop on a steel shaft going through a brass bush isn't really going to cause a major problem - it's not like it's a precision bearing;-) I do agree with you that if it's something else internally then it needs service from qualified personel and that correct lubricants are important.

My situation occurred on a motorbike trip in southern Algeria - ACF50 is what I had with me (perfect for bikes - maybe less so for precision instruments!) - yet it did solve the problem with no further recurrence.

P