Black Leica iii's with Chrome

[mickjazz]

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Recently acquired a '36 Leica iii in black with chrome hardware.

 

Many of you here likely have one. Was wondering how many of this version were made and what year Leitz went to black/chrome.

 

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[alan mcfall]

Earliest Bl/Cr I have recorded is a STD, 193358.  The earliest 1936 Bl /Cr lot for the model 3 is 194301-650, I have camera 194524. In 1936 I estamate that 1800 Bl/Cr model III cameras were made.   1000 in 1937, 700 in 1938 and 300 in 1939l.   Black paint was falling out in favor of all chrome. I have never recorded a 1935 black and chrome camera. A few Black and nickle cameras were made in 1936, but almost none in 37, 38 and 39. Approximately 3800-4000 model III Black and Chrome cameras were made. About the same for the E or STD, and only 2500 for the model II.  As chrome cameras were available from 1933, I think Leitz waited until late 1935 or early 1936 to produce Bl and chrome cameras, as at that time so much production of chrome hardware was taking place, it just didn't make sense to continue to produce nickle.  Having both plating systems would have been somewhat expensive. Many lament the loss of Black and Nickle as they regard it as better looking.

If anyone has an original Black and Chrome camera under serial 193201, it would be interesting.I have 25+ B/Cr cameras and a database of about 200 listings.  Always looking for new and better information.

[willeica]

Black and chrome set from 1937, camera with SN 249442

 

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Here is the same camera with a MOOLY, a black and chrome 7.3cm f1.9 Hektor from 1933 and rare SAIOO finder (with case) for the Hektor.

 

 

The Hektor goes very well with the black and chrome III, even though it was made 4 years earlier.

 

I have to admit that I have a real fondness for the black and nickel models made between the mid 1920s and the mid 1930s. For me they were the nicest Leicas ever made.

 

William

Edited December 29, 2017 by willeica

[mickjazz]

Beautiful cameras. My black/chrome is

215467. Image courtesy of the seller.

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[wlaidlaw]

Earliest Bl/Cr I have recorded is a STD, 193358.  The earliest 1936 Bl /Cr lot for the model 3 is 194301-650, I have camera 194524. In 1936 I estamate that 1800 Bl/Cr model III cameras were made.   1000 in 1937, 700 in 1938 and 300 in 1939l.   Black paint was falling out in favor of all chrome. I have never recorded a 1935 black and chrome camera. A few Black and nickle cameras were made in 1936, but almost none in 37, 38 and 39. Approximately 3800-4000 model III Black and Chrome cameras were made. About the same for the E or STD, and only 2500 for the model II.  As chrome cameras were available from 1933, I think Leitz waited until late 1935 or early 1936 to produce Bl and chrome cameras, as at that time so much production of chrome hardware was taking place, it just didn't make sense to continue to produce nickle.  Having both plating systems would have been somewhat expensive. Many lament the loss of Black and Nickle as they regard it as better looking.

If anyone has an original Black and Chrome camera under serial 193201, it would be interesting.I have 25+ B/Cr cameras and a database of about 200 listings.  Always looking for new and better information.

 

Alan, 

 

Does not the chrome have a nickel undercoat, as chrome does not bond very well to most metals other than nickel? If this is the case, they would still have had to maintain a nickel plating facility. I presumed they replaced nickel with chrome, due to chrome's better wearing characteristics against nickel. The downside is that while nickel wears (brassing), chrome tends to flake off or bubble, which is much uglier. 

 

Wilson

Edited December 30, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

Alan, 

 

Does not the chrome have a nickel undercoat, as chrome does not bond very well to most metals other than nickel? If this is the case, they would still have had to maintain a nickel plating facility. I presumed they replaced nickel with chrome, due to chrome's better wearing characteristics against nickel. The downside is that while nickel wears (brassing), chrome tends to flake off or bubble, which is much uglier. 

 

Wilson

 

You could be right. What is obvious, is that black and nickel models age better than their chrome counterparts and brassing is considered desirable. When chrome was first introduced by Leica in 1933, the chrome cameras were sold at a premium to their black and nickel counterparts. The reverse is the case today in the collector market for cameras from that period. I have an early chrome III in bright chrome, which was used by Leica for a very short period in 1933. It still looks like it came out of the factory yesterday and it has aged much better than 'normal chrome' examples in my collection.

 

Others may have the answer to your question about nickel being used in the chroming process.

 

William

[mickjazz]

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I thought the black with chrome were essentially the same as the black with nickel hardware but for the knobs etc.

 

Aren't they all brass under the black paint? When the black paint wears what shows? Brassing or what?

[wlaidlaw]

I thought the black with chrome were essentially the same as the black with nickel hardware but for the knobs etc.

 

Aren't they all brass under the black paint? When the black paint wears what shows? Brassing or what?

 

I don't think there are many period Leicas with black knobs. The only one I have is my 0 (Null) series replica. The top and bottom plates of the camera are indeed brass and that is what shows through worn paint. The body under the Vulkanit is aluminium alloy. 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

I don't think there are many period Leicas with black knobs. The only one I have is my 0 (Null) series replica. The top and bottom plates of the camera are indeed brass and that is what shows through worn paint. The body under the Vulkanit is aluminium alloy. 

 

Wilson

 

 I think that Mickjazz was referring to the bodies, which are black paint/lacquer or chrome on the top and bottom plates. The black with chrome are the same as the black with nickel apart from the knobs and other furniture. The paint will wear to show brass underneath. The chrome needs a lot of wear for the brass to show through and usually just marks up with scratches etc. The knobs and other furniture are either nickel or chrome. The Null series which you have is, of course, a replica made in recent times. 

 

William

[mickjazz]

Thanks William

[jerzy]

knowing it from galvaniseur who is doing replating nickel and chrom for me - chrome is third layer being applied. There is: copper, nickel and finaly chrome is being plated. Hardly, but sometimes it may be observed on used cameras - when chrome is rubbed of the layer below is more yellowish - this is nickel.

[wlaidlaw]

knowing it from galvaniseur who is doing replating nickel and chrom for me - chrome is third layer being applied. There is: copper, nickel and finaly chrome is being plated. Hardly, but sometimes it may be observed on used cameras - when chrome is rubbed of the layer below is more yellowish - this is nickel.

 

I know that is what is used on car fenders etc but that is because they are steel and need the copper base layer. As brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, the copper base layer is not required. I believe one of the purposes of the copper base layer is to even out the electrical charge as alloy low carbon steel is an indifferent and uneven conductor of electricity. 

 

Wilson

Edited December 31, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[kangaroo2012]

I heard many years ago that nickel was used in military applications and was thus in short supply in the build up to WW2.

This could be the reason for the chrome flaking seen on wartime vintage Leicas, chrome on brass without the nickel layer.

Philip 

[willeica]

I heard many years ago that nickel was used in military applications and was thus in short supply in the build up to WW2.

This could be the reason for the chrome flaking seen on wartime vintage Leicas, chrome on brass without the nickel layer.

Philip 

It is said also that the cameras with grey paint resulted from there being a shortage of materials for chrome plating during the war period. I have a couple of them and they brass very nicely where the paint is worn away.

 

William

[alan mcfall]

Although pure brass can be chrome plated with out a copper or nickle strike, Lietz almost certainly continued to nickle plate before applying chrome. In 1946, British Intelligence reported the plating process in place for the IIIb and IIIc cameras, consisted of applying the nickle in a 6ftx2.5ftc2ft tank, voltage at 2.5 current at 25 amps and so on with details, and then transfering to the chrome tank, slightly smaller at higher voltage for 3 minutes. You can Google and find the report if you havn't seen it.

I do not know if Lietz brass is pure or alloyed for higher strength ( probably). But either way they were still nickle plating some of all the brass parts.

The reason for transitioning from nickle hardware to chrome hardware on black paint cameras was likely as stated above, the fact that chrome was better for wear, but why wait 3 years to do it?  They could have switched to chrome hardware in 1933 or 34. It may also be possible that with black and nickle cameras becoming such low production numbers, to continue to inventory/stock/assemble two finishes on these parts was just too much effort.

[wlaidlaw]

During WW2 Germany obtained most of its Nickel from Finland, where much of the Nickel production was under German financial control. Chromium ores were obtained from both Czechoslovakia and Turkey during the earlier part of the war. Heavy diplomatic pressure was applied by both UK, USA and the USSR to get Turkey to at least reduce chromium ore exports to the axis powers, which did result in a chromium shortage later during the conflict. Increasing Soviet submarine activity in the Baltic and the cutting off of the short sea then land route via the Baltic states, probably had a similar effect on supplies of refined and ore nickel coming from Finland. I cannot imagine Leitz would have been a priority customer, with the great majority going into specialised high alloy steel production for gun barrels and the like. 

 

Wilson

Edited January 1, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

Thanks Alan. To fill out the story a bit here are the production figures for the III in black paint (either nickel or chrome furniture) and in chrome finish.

 

1933 black 9704 chrome 2450

1934 black 8233 chrome 12616

1935 black 4279 chrome 9575

1936 black 3050 chrome 6650

1937 black 1000 chrome 6500

1938 black 700   chrome 5800

1939 black 400   chrome 5500

 

From 1935 the IIIa was introduced and in the first year the production figures are black 800 ( has anyone here got one?)  and chrome 12050. The IIIb was introduced in 1938, but there does not seem to be any record of a black one ( has anyone here seen one?). One must assume that, despite the initial higher cost, the market demand in the 1930s was for the chrome models.

 

To complete the picture, I have looked at the British Leica catalogues for 1933, 1936 and 1938. In 1933 and 1936 the III was available in both black and nickel (cheaper) and chrome. The IIIa was available in 1936 in chrome only. In 1938 all III, IIIa and IIIb cameras are chrome only. There is no reference to black cameras being available, so we can only assume that any that were sold at that time (with chrome furniture) were by way of special order.

 

The reason why fully chrome cameras were initially more expensive was because of the cost of production using the techniques described by Alan. Demand for chrome models remained high and new models ( apart from some IIIas) were produced in chrome. By 1936, the chrome development costs would have been 'sunk' and the factory would have had a lot of chrome furniture parts lying around. It would have made economic sense to have used those parts, with reduced marginal cost, for any remaining black cameras produced during the late 1930s. The ironic thing is that the black cameras, which were considered less valuable by customers in the 1930s, are now considered to be more desirable by collectors today.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

I have been looking for a black IIIa for over 20 years with no luck at anything approaching an affordable price. I was overbid at a Westlicht auction a few years ago on one which also had a black Elmar (original????). 

 

Wilson

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[Pyrogallol]

I was told by someone that the change in camera finish (not just at Leitz) from black to chrome during the 1930’s was an Art Deco fashion/design element? People wanted their new purchases in fashionable Art Deco chrome, not old fashioned black.

[jerzy]

 

The IIIb was introduced in 1938, but there does not seem to be any record of a black one ( has anyone here seen one?).

 

 

William, as per factory records there were 5 black paint IIIb, produced for US market. SNs 295301-295305.Sartorius is showinga photo of one, I did not check Hasbroek nor Lager for the pictures.

With only 5 samples produced the black IIIb belongs to the rarest Leicas.

Edited January 2, 2018 by jerzy