Good news from Wetzlar

[kparseg]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I would expect any modern high-quality lens to do OK on a "brick wall" test, especially when stopped-down a bit. What I find outstanding about the S lenses is their ability to hold very fine detail in high-contrast situations. I can shoot with the sun in the frame, behind my subject, and still keep see subtle skin texture and even individual back-lit hairs. Most lenses can't do that, contrast will drop to near-zero due to flare, and small details will be lost in aberrations. This, added to the fact that I can nail focus in the viewfinder, provides a high level of trust.

 

I haven't tried the Fuji lens you mention, but I know that every S lens that I've used has been outstanding. They really expand the limits of what can be photographed. In the end, that's what it's about for me: do I have confidence that the lens won't fail me optically when I see a beautiful/difficult image?

100S is indeed an amazing lens. The photographs taken with it are magical. Don't know how to explain it but I liked them much better than those taken with my 120CS lens, which I found quite boring. Too bad it has no leaf shutter like Hassy 110 f2.2 but that's okay too. 

 

To answer a question above, yes I meant 100S vs. 110 f2 Fuji lens. 

[xiaubauu2009]

I have just returned from a couple of days in Wetzlar. I cannot provide details of the discussions due to confidentiality, however, I can say that more good things are happening and it is good to be in the S system.

 

I attended the pre-opening of a new exhibit at the Leica Gallerie and there was a lot of "buzz" about the CL. I looked at it, and I can see why people like it. Since I prefer cameras with large sensors, it is not for me - yet.

 

I had a private tour of the optics production. Although, I already knew that it was world class, seeing it up close was very impressive. The tolerances in the grinding, polishing and assembly steps are very tight.

 

While I was there, my S Typ 006 and Super-Elmar-S 24 were serviced. Both items were ready for me the next morning. Fantastic service.

 

I tried out a S Typ 007 for a day. I have not considered it because of the 60-second maximum exposure. As 007 users already know, it is an excellent handling camera. The attached photo is from the 007. I communicated very clearly that I will stay with the 006 due to exposure time limits, and that more that 125 seconds is needed. We will see what happens.

 

Jesse

Lowres-1007957.jpg

S 007, Super-Elmar-S 24

 

 

The beautiful cold blue of the Leica S006 look. This is what makes it so special!!!!!

[xiaubauu2009]

Exactly. I tried-out a GFX last week. The interface is a hot mess, with innumerable (or at least immemorable) buttons on every surface, save for underneath. The AF has a mind of its own; it randomly picks focus points. It picks an elbow this time, some background detail next time, a collar after that. The EVF is a joke compared to the SL, so manual focus is out of the question for moving subjects.

 

It is relatively cheap for a medium format digital camera, but it's a lot of money for that particular camera.

 

AF has a mind of its own? I never find that is the case, perhaps you are just not familiar with the camera and just don't bother to learn it as it is not a Leica. Hahahah. Manual focus is out of question even for SL, it will have the same kind of handicap won't it? Tell me how it's different? As a matter of fact, I find the focus peaking of the Fuji is way better than the SL, which mean using SL to manual focus is even harder.

 

The AF is way more accurate than S and it's selectable easier either with touch screen or with the joystick. and it's on sensor CDAF, which will be dead accurate, not like the S with its lovely mirror that has a incredible OVF but you will have to worry about front/back focus due to antiquated AF system.

 

Anyway, if you love it, you love, no matter the fact. I used to be one, until it all start to break apart.

[xiaubauu2009]

100S is indeed an amazing lens. The photographs taken with it are magical. Don't know how to explain it but I liked them much better than those taken with my 120CS lens, which I found quite boring. Too bad it has no leaf shutter like Hassy 110 f2.2 but that's okay too. 

 

To answer a question above, yes I meant 100S vs. 110 f2 Fuji lens. 

 

 

I don't find Fujilens to have very pleasing character, they are very very sharp and lots of micro details, but it doesn't feel as smooth. It's too 'modern'. What amazed me from the fuji is that standard Zoom lens. 32-64mm. It is one of the best zoom I have every had. The leica S 30-90 is just a dog compare to the Fuji.

[Sandokan]

It may be good but not at the price Leica sells its S system. Who in his mind would pay $20k for a camera and >$5k for a lens if you can get the same very high quality gear at 30-50% of the price. If someone really has that much money to burn, pick up IQ3 at $20k next year.

You are welcome to tell us how good other cameras are and how and why they are better than the Leica, and we will discuss and maybe agree with you. Most of us have and use other equipment too.

 

But your opening statement is, we are not in our minds. Do you consider that insulting? I do.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kparseg]

You are welcome to tell us how good other cameras are and how and why they are better than the Leica, and we will discuss and maybe agree with you. Most of us have and use other equipment too.

 

But your opening statement is, we are not in our minds. Do you consider that insulting? I do.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm not saying other cameras are better or worse. All I'm saying is that cameras nowadays offer very similar and very high image quality. So, why would one pay premium for the very similar IQ? How is that insulting? If you like wasting your money, that's fine with me. Do what you feel is right for you. 

[Alo Ako]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So, why would one pay premium for the very similar IQ?

 

Maybe the image quality is NOT very similar in every situation. Less flares, less ca, less reflexions is the difference. And that is, what I‘m paying for. I‘m not interested in a good price/ quality relationship. I‘m interested in the best quality I can get for the money. So Fuji, Pentax and Hasselblad X is no option for me.

[BernardC]

AF has a mind of its own? I never find that is the case, perhaps you are just not familiar with the camera and just don't bother to learn it as it is not a Leica. Hahahah. Manual focus is out of question even for SL, it will have the same kind of handicap won't it? Tell me how it's different? As a matter of fact, I find the focus peaking of the Fuji is way better than the SL, which mean using SL to manual focus is even harder.

I find that focus peaking is a hindrance more than a help. It is triggered by contrast, and lights-up the viewfinder wherever it finds some. The way to learn to nail focus is (unsurprisingly) practice.

The SL is very good (though not as good as the S) because of the high resolution viewfinder and high quality viewfinder optics. You can visualize the plane of focus and instinctively move it backward and forward. Incidentally, that's why I could never use Nikon; the lenses focus in the opposite direction. It's like playing a piano with the high notes on the left and the bass on the right...

 

I cover events where I shoot thousands of images, and very rarely miss focus. It all comes down to knowing and trusting your equipment, and lots of practice. One exercise that I find helps is to go to a park and follow-focus small animals. It's like a musician practicing scales. Eventually you learn to see the whole image, not just your main subject, and to anticipate changes in the focus plane as the subject moves.

 

Could I do that with the Fuji? Probably, but I would need to work twice as hard because of the lower quality viewfinder and sloppy focus action.

 

Other people use their cameras differently, so my experience doesn't apply to them. However, I resent being told that I don't "bother to learn." It's precisely because I do bother, and practice, and shoot, that I know what works for me and what doesn't. Mastering any instrument is difficult. It requires commitment. It also requires finding instruments that I can trust. Maybe I could be half as good with 10% of the effort by relinquishing control to an automated tool, but what's the benefit?

[albireo_double]

The products that Leica manufacturers, for example the S system, are produced to a level of precision and durability that influences the selling price. If one wants that level of precision, then there is a price to pay.

As for “durability”, two of my S lenses had a failed AF motor. The sensor on my S2 had to be replaced (dead pixels), same thing for the top display on the S2 which faded. The sensor in my S007 had to be firmware-remapped due to a thin horizontal line appearing in high ISO shots taken using LV. My M240 developed a shutter problem during my Africa trip. To their credit, Leica fixed all the problems, quickly with the S, in 10 weeks with the M. Ok, I will forgive them that the tethering plugin still doesn’t apply the chosen presets in LR, as it should...despite me reporting this bug to them 10 months ago. But, going forward, I am no longer takig all the B/S about “Leica being a small company, with limited resources, so we need to put up with these issues as long as they fix them in reasonable time and as long as the lenses are soooo good”. If I am going to spend Eur15-20k on another camera body and north of Eur5k on another lens, I want it to be 100% reliable - and if not, then I want a replacement parachuted within 48 hours to any place on Earth, free of charge. Because if it fails, the S becomes an expensive and useless deadweight in my luggage, no matter how “durable and precise”. And I don’t care that “it is just a mechanical/electronic device and as such it may malfunction”, because at the price (and weight) of the S system, it is not affordable and practical for me to own (or travel with) a back up - and then I may be better off buying two GFXs or D850s instead of one S. Consequently, for me at least, I would expect Leica to make some very strong and credible statements on reliability when they launch the S008...that would be a good starting point, before any talk on new features and higher specs. I want to hear them say loud and clear: “There will be zero issues with your new S cameras and lenses, gentlemen, as we have finally left Jenoptik, Metz and other German also-ran and bankrupt suppliers aside, and we will now only be using state-of-the art technologies and sub-assemblies in the S camera, ensuring that the system is reliable, doesn’t become obsolete in one year and can work with a wide range of third party flash and other accessories”. (But please, keep the battery the same, so I don't need to travel with a separate luggage just for batteries and chargers.). End of rant.

[Alo Ako]

 If I am going to spend Eur15-20k on another camera body and north of Eur5k on another lens, I want it to be 100% reliable - and if not, then I want a replacement parachuted within 48 hours to any place on Earth, free of charge. 

 

Spend EUR 30 - 40 and you will get this service by Phase One. 

[albireo_double]

That is a fairly imprecise test, I would say. I am not denying that the Fuji is a great lens, but would you trust someone who said "I can't really see the difference between camera a X and Y", without going through some more rigorous testing, MTFs etc? "I can't really see the difference between a Voigtlander and a Leica in practical use".

I've never claimed to have run any “precise test”. All I wrote is that I've been extremely pleased with portraits taken using both lenses, to such an extent that I considered them comparable in my use. In terms of rendering, both are very sharp, while being more forgiving to the skin then their 120 macro brethren - and that is what defines a great portrait lens for me. Even if the Leica lens offered an extra snippet of smoothness or whatever other magic under certain light conditions or aperture settings, I get a higher percentage of accurately focused images with the Fuji, given its more modern and flexible AF system (compared to my usual focus/recompose routine with the S). If you are interested, there are rigorous tests of the Fuji lenses on the GFX available online, look up Jim Kasson’s for instance (he’s reported some issues which I fortunately haven’t seen) or the test published by imaging-resource. There is also a nice write-up on the 110 lens by Jonas Rask who has been one of the Fuji testers, including images showing its rendering and character. There are also tests available for the Leica S and lenses, again with some reviewers (Lloyd Chambers in particular) finding AF problems that I haven't ever seen in my shooting, and others being very happy. In the end, anybody can use what they want and spend their money as they like. Just be aware that today, in 2017, there are some fantastic alternatives to the S system on the market, at a much lower price.

[Sandokan]

I'm not saying other cameras are better or worse. All I'm saying is that cameras nowadays offer very similar and very high image quality. So, why would one pay premium for the very similar IQ? How is that insulting? If you like wasting your money, that's fine with me. Do what you feel is right for you.

My opinion is different to yours. And that is what they are, Opinions. There is an analogy, that like some body parts, they should be kept to yourself.

 

So, if other systems offer the image quality that satisfies you, what are you doing here? In case you don’t understand, that is a rhetorical question; which means you do not need to bother answering.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rsmphoto]

 If I am going to spend Eur15-20k on another camera body and north of Eur5k on another lens, I want it to be 100% reliable - and if not, then I want a replacement parachuted within 48 hours to any place on Earth, free of charge. 

 

 

Actually, when my S006 did fail in the middle of a large shoot, along with two lenses, that's exactly what did happen - no parachute mind you, but Fedex was a proper substitute. So, in my experience at least, it has all been money well spent. And during 5 or so years of ownership, the camera has reliably produced exceptional captures, with clients from time to time independently remarking on the 3 dimensional quality of my images vs other photography they've commissioned.

Edited December 6, 2017 by rsmphoto

[Jeff S]

If you like wasting your money, that's fine with me.

I have no vested interest in the S system. But do you not understand how S owners might consider it insulting by telling them that they have wasted their money? Really?

 

Jeff

Edited December 6, 2017 by Jeff S

[pop]

I'm not saying other cameras are better or worse. All I'm saying is that cameras nowadays offer very similar and very high image quality. So, why would one pay premium for the very similar IQ? How is that insulting? If you like wasting your money, that's fine with me. Do what you feel is right for you. 

(Emphasis added by me for clarity) - This happens not to be true, i.e. it's not all you are saying. As a matter of fact, you said:

 

It may be good but not at the price Leica sells its S system. Who in his mind would pay $20k for a camera and >$5k for a lens if you can get the same very high quality gear at 30-50% of the price. If someone really has that much money to burn, pick up IQ3 at $20k next year. 

(again, emphasis added for clarity).

 

In other words: according to you people are not their minds if they evaluate an outfit differently from you. 

I have removed your last post which is overly aggressive and a quite insulting on its own. Please drop the matter now.

[kparseg]

(Emphasis added by me for clarity) - This happens not to be true, i.e. it's not all you are saying. As a matter of fact, you said:

 

(again, emphasis added for clarity).

 

In other words: according to you people are not their minds if they evaluate an outfit differently from you. 

I have removed your last post which is overly aggressive and a quite insulting on its own. Please drop the matter now.

Maybe you should have not removed my last post to let other members decide whether it has been aggressive or not? I understand you're a moderator, but you need to be more objective. So, you find that when other members talk arrogantly, it's fine. When I very politely ask them not to talk arrogantly, you delete my post? Sounds like you're too biased in your criteria, which is perfectly fine with me. Dare to undelete my post and let others see it? I bet you would not. 

 

Yes, I would say that if you have money to burn and get 1% extra quality, you can pay 2-4 times more. That's your money, but go ahead and ask 100 people if they would do that, and let's see how many of them will say they would.

 

And who's going to benefit from the overpriced gear? Current Leica S users? The S community is very small, and if Leica reduced prices, then it'd attract more users and make the entire line more attractive. So, what's wrong with me saying this? 

[Jeff S]

I have no vested interest in the S system. But do you not understand how S owners might consider it insulting by telling them that they have wasted their money? Really?

 

Jeff

kparseg?

 

Jeff

[kparseg]

kparseg?

 

Jeff

Where's this coming from, Jeff?

[Jeff S]

Where's this coming from, Jeff?

Just looking for the courtesy of a response.

 

Jeff

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[erl]

My objective opinion, (ie I have no investment or interest in the S system), is that kparseg has has passed a value judgment to which he is entitled. Where he has crossed the line, as picked up by Pop, is that he has cast an implied criticism of those who have, or would spend their money on an S system rather than some alternative. Those members don't need to be told how to invest or enjoy their own disposable dollar/euro. If I were one of them I would feel affronted.