wlaidlaw Posted October 13, 2017 Share #1 Posted October 13, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have just bought some 1970's vintage cassettes of Kodak 70mm film. It is Ektachrome emulsion 5256. It is listed as a chromogenic subtractive colour, television film with an original ISO of 125. I will be shooting this in my repaired Combat Graflex rangefinder. For this very expired film (mid 1970's) what do folks guess might be a good film speed. I was thinking about ISO 25 or 50. I have not paid a lot for it and in fact the price is worth it just for the metal Kodak Cassettes, which I only currently have four of. I have lots of the plastic spool Linhof 70mm cassettes but compared with the Kodak they are rubbish and very difficult to reload. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here Just picked up some expired rolls of Ektachrome 5256 ISO?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted October 13, 2017 Share #2 Posted October 13, 2017 What a great find! For heavens sake, bracket and please let us know how it works out. . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted October 13, 2017 Share #3 Posted October 13, 2017 A rule of thumb for expired film is to allow one extra stop per decade expired, so your film should probably be shot 4 stops over, about 8 ISO. I would suggest you try a few frames at that speed and have it developed normally and see what you get. At the very least I would expect some wild colour shifts. I shot some 10 year old colour neg film recently and the colours were very muddy and subdued. I'm not sure how 40 year old slide film will behave. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted October 14, 2017 A rule of thumb for expired film is to allow one extra stop per decade expired, so your film should probably be shot 4 stops over, about 8 ISO. I would suggest you try a few frames at that speed and have it developed normally and see what you get. At the very least I would expect some wild colour shifts. I shot some 10 year old colour neg film recently and the colours were very muddy and subdued. I'm not sure how 40 year old slide film will behave. With the internal guillotine in the Combat Graflex, it is very easy to take a few shots and then guillotine what you have taken, put a lens cap on and fire off two frames to wind the exposed film into the receiving cassette. Unlike 35mm film, you do not rewind the film back into the feed cassette from a wind on spool; the Graflex feeds from one cassette to an identical cassette. I can then send it to John Salim for development. He charges per foot of 70mm film, so that without spending that much money I can take test photos at say 40, 25, 10 and 8 ISO. Fortunately I have a Weston Master V, which goes down to very low ISO's thus avoiding mental calculations. I have no idea how this film has been kept. It may have been kept in a freezer, alternatively it may have been kept in the boiler room. Wilson 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 14, 2017 Share #5 Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Wilson, I think that your bracketing suggestions are fine, but you may not see much difference between 10 and 8 ISO. I presume that the Combat Graflex has the well known modern speed and aperture divisions. I recently had to do some exposure calculation mental somersaults using a Vest Pocket Kodak from 1915 with modern ISO 100 black and white 127 film. While the camera had only two speeds 1/25th and 1/50th, the 'apertures' are set out as distance/weather descriptions (not numbers) and I had no idea what effective ISO (the concept had not been created in 1915) was in use at the time of the manufacture of the camera. I guessed it was no more than around 10 ISO and shot, accordingly, with the camera well stopped down for the ISO 100 film. I was pleased to get 4 usable shots on a roll of 8 exposures. I intend to try some more ancient Kodak cameras which lack today's speed and aperture markings. Kodak used what was then described as the 'Autotime Scale' but trying to find out the modern speed rating equivalent of films from the time of the First World War is difficult. I look forward to seeing the results from your Combat Graflex. William Edited October 14, 2017 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) William, That is where I find the Weston Master V so good. It lists all different conventions of speeds and apertures. As I have not the Graflex in front of me and it is nine months since I last saw it, I cannot recall whether the speeds are standard or not. If I was going to guess, I would say not. I think the earlier Kodak films used the Hurter and Driffield speed ratings as DIN was not regularised until 1934 and ASA until 1943. The Soviet Union continued using the H&D speed ratings until the 1950's. ISO/ASA 25 = approx 1000 H&D. Wilson PS The Zeiss extinction meter I was using in the late 1950's was graduated in H&D ratings. Edited October 14, 2017 by wlaidlaw 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted October 14, 2017 Share #7 Posted October 14, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I shoot a wide variety of vintage cameras and weird film types, from my experience I have found that most early 20th century cameras were designed around the modern equivalent of 30 ISO film, with that knowledge it’s easy to adjust to faster film speeds. Developing my own film does help, I can push and pull as necessary. I really do enjoy still using things like my 1916 Box Brownie, and I’m currently carrying a Kodak Bantam 828 using respooled 35mm film and a Canon APS with 10 year old film. Wilson, don,t expect too much from your film, sadly I have found that Ecktachrome has very poor archival qualities. I recently scanned 1400 slides for my father-in-law, all the Ecktachrome had faded to a light pink, I would assume unexposed film would also behave in the same way. The oldest color negative film I have managed to get an image out of dated from the early 90’s, older than that the base fog makes the film unusable. I have yet to shoot colour slide of any vintage and I am interested in the results you get. Also, would Ilford be able to supply the film you need during their annual custom film orders? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share #8 Posted October 14, 2017 I shoot a wide variety of vintage cameras and weird film types, from my experience I have found that most early 20th century cameras were designed around the modern equivalent of 30 ISO film, with that knowledge it’s easy to adjust to faster film speeds. Developing my own film does help, I can push and pull as necessary. I really do enjoy still using things like my 1916 Box Brownie, and I’m currently carrying a Kodak Bantam 828 using respooled 35mm film and a Canon APS with 10 year old film. Wilson, don,t expect too much from your film, sadly I have found that Ecktachrome has very poor archival qualities. I recently scanned 1400 slides for my father-in-law, all the Ecktachrome had faded to a light pink, I would assume unexposed film would also behave in the same way. The oldest color negative film I have managed to get an image out of dated from the early 90’s, older than that the base fog makes the film unusable. I have yet to shoot colour slide of any vintage and I am interested in the results you get. Also, would Ilford be able to supply the film you need during their annual custom film orders? Mike, Ilford have offered me HP5 but at a staggering price of £300 for a 100 foot roll of 70mm. Given that I can buy (and have bought) 100 foot rolls of 70mm Rollei 400S from Macodirect for €88, I don't think I am going to be a customer for Ilford any time soon. My current problem is loading it in a changing bag, which is exceedingly difficult. I would love to find a 70mm daylight loader, which were made by various people but none have come up on Fleabay recently. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted October 14, 2017 Share #9 Posted October 14, 2017 That is pricey! I just picked up a Calumet Changing Room for loading 4x5, something like that would probably make your life easier. The Harrison Pup Tent is another option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 14, 2017 Share #10 Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) William, That is where I find the Weston Master V so good. It lists all different conventions of speeds and apertures. As I have not the Graflex in front of me and it is nine months since I last saw it, I cannot recall whether the speeds are standard or not. If I was going to guess, I would say not. I think the earlier Kodak films used the Hurter and Driffield speed ratings as DIN was not regularised until 1934 and ASA until 1943. The Soviet Union continued using the H&D speed ratings until the 1950's. ISO/ASA 25 = approx 1000 H&D. Wilson PS The Zeiss extinction meter I was using in the late 1950's was graduated in H&D ratings. Thanks Wilson and Mike. I have an old Weston Euro Master and a Bewi Extinction meter but neither of them work that well. Shooting in Black and White does help with exposure latitude, of course. I suspect that at the time of the First World War, film was below ISO 25. 10 -15 would be a good jumping off point, I believe. My next project may involve using a camera designed for 116 film with adapters to take modern 120 film. I will report the results here. A company in Italy called camerahack produces a range of such adapters https://www.camerhack.it/product-category/adapters/, including one that allows 35mm film to be shot in cameras designed for 120. William Edited October 14, 2017 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted October 14, 2017 Share #11 Posted October 14, 2017 Thanks Wilson and Mike. I have an old Weston Euro Master and a Bewi Extinction meter but neither of them work that well. Shooting in Black and White does help with exposure latitude, of course. I suspect that at the time of the First World War, film was below ISO 25. 10 -15 would be a good jumping off point, I believe. My next project may involve using a camera designed for 116 film with adapters to take modern 120 film. I will report the results here. A company in Italy called camerahack produces a range of such adapters https://www.camerhack.it/product-category/adapters/, including one that allows 35mm film to be shot in cameras designed for 120. William William, I use these: http://www.holgamods.com/holgamods/Spools.html 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 14, 2017 Share #12 Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) That is where I find the Weston Master V so good. It lists all different conventions of speeds and apertures. ASA standards for B&W film were changed in 1960. Most film speeds were doubled. Edited October 14, 2017 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 14, 2017 Share #13 Posted October 14, 2017 Hello Everybody, A Weston Master V is from circa 1970. Film speeds would be placed on the dial as they would be today. Best Regards, Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 14, 2017 Share #14 Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Actually, according to Kodak: Ektachrome MS 5256 - introduced 1963, Daylight color balance, ISO 64, discontinued 1984, process ME-4 (which means E-4 modified for motion picture films - I'd worry it might have REMjet black backing, which requires a separate alkali pre-wash before "normal" processing, or the REMjet coating will contaminate the developer with black goo!) E-4 (ME-4) films cannot be processed in current E6 chemistry without significant additional steps, and different processing times/temperatures! You will need to find a lab that has (or can formulate) the E4 chemicals (discontinued mid-1990s) or knows how to modifiy the E6 process with additional E4 pre-hardener and neutralizer steps (plus the REMjet removal if needed). See entry for 1963: https://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/About/Chronology_Of_Film/1960-1979/default.htm https://www.lomography.com/homes/lzyrich/notes/139417-removal-of-rem-jet-backing-from-cine-film http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis111-E4_Forumulas.pdf http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8772 http://www.rockymountainfilm.com/services/movie/ektamovie.htm Edited October 14, 2017 by adan 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share #15 Posted October 14, 2017 Hello Everybody, A Weston Master V is from circa 1970. Film speeds would be placed on the dial as they would be today. Best Regards, Michael It is not the film speeds I was talking about but shutter speeds and aperture, where it not only has the modern values but all the in-between amounts for older cameras: 1/75th sec, f18 etc. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share #16 Posted October 14, 2017 Actually, according to Kodak: Ektachrome MS 5256 - introduced 1963, Daylight color balance, ISO 64, discontinued 1984, process ME-4 (which means E-4 modified for motion picture films - I'd worry it might have REMjet black backing, which requires a separate alkali pre-wash before "normal" processing, or the REMjet coating will contaminate the developer with black goo!) E-4 (ME-4) films cannot be processed in current E6 chemistry! You will need to find a lab that has (or can formulate) the E4 chemicals (discontinued mid-1990s). See entry for 1963: https://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/About/Chronology_Of_Film/1960-1979/default.htm https://www.lomography.com/homes/lzyrich/notes/139417-removal-of-rem-jet-backing-from-cine-film http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis111-E4_Forumulas.pdf I will pass all that on to John Salim, who is the expert on processing out of date film in the UK. Thanks for the info. I found another Kodak listing which showed 5256 as ISO 125 dated 1973, so they may have changed the emulsion. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 14, 2017 Share #17 Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) It is not the film speeds I was talking about but shutter speeds and aperture, where it not only has the modern values but all the in-between amounts for older cameras: 1/75th sec, f18 etc. Wilson Hello Wilson, I understand that. The multitude of shutter speeds & lens openings on the dial make a Weston Master V a very useful meter. I was responding to Pico,s Post # 12 above where he correctly reminded people that the system for determining negative (Not transparency.) film speeds had been different on some earlier Weston meters.. If an old style sensitivity number is used as a modern ISO number then: Even with more finely tuned shutter speeds & lens openings, the exposure may still be incorrect. Best Regards, Michael Edited October 14, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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