Sensor replacement and market impact

[ianman]

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58 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

Is that still cheaper than an M240 in acceptable condition, I wonder?

Should it be?

I have to agree with Topsy, even if the XPro2 was an improvement over the previous model, the AF is dreadful unless conditions are ideal... and MF on native lenses is a truly awful. Luckily I could use the M lenses on the XPro2. It's a nice enough camera and I still use it occasionally but it's really a poor experience compared to the simplicity of any M. 

[alwinvrm]

2 hours ago, ianman said:

Should it be?

I have to agree with Topsy, even if the XPro2 was an improvement over the previous model, the AF is dreadful unless conditions are ideal... and MF on native lenses is a truly awful. Luckily I could use the M lenses on the XPro2. It's a nice enough camera and I still use it occasionally but it's really a poor experience compared to the simplicity of any M. 

Thanks ianman for your reply. Do you mean that you hold the M9 in higher regard than the 240? I like to work with Leica's; that's why I am here. At least to me the xpro2 is a  very usable camera, but of course others may have different criteria to be met.

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[jaapv]

I think the M9 is the preferable camera, with nicer files, unless you need the the extra features of the M240 (Live View, EVF, Video, better low-light performance, slightly improved viewfinder) In my hands the M240 files needed more postprocessing work than the M9 ones.

[ianman]

50 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

Do you mean that you hold the M9 in higher regard than the 240?

In a nutshell, I prefer the M9 to the M240.

In a slightly larger nutshell..., I wrote in another thread just a couple of days ago how much I dislike the endless and frankly pointless discussions about which body or lens is "better" than another. Pointless because "better" is often subjective and personal and certainly when it comes to the gear used for our favourite hobby (or profession). What is certain though is that lenses and bodies are different and produce different results.

Asking if the M240 is better then the M9 is like asking if HP5 is better than Tri-x. They each have different qualities. Or even more strangely stating the the M240 is an "upgrade"... that's like saying HP5 is an upgrade of FP4.

So, from my long-ish experience with the M9 and limited experience with subsequent models, I prefer the images created by the M9... and I suppose that a big factor is the type of sensor used. I am lucky in the fact that I am not interested in having my camera make movies, I have no great need for LiveView at the moment, neither have I felt the call of mega high ISO.

It's strange, and it could be just me, but recently another member wrote about how he disliked M9 images due to their oversaturated colours. I write "strange" because I actually find it's the contrary. I find that a lot of the images output by the M240 (less so the M10) are flat and saturated with no - for want of another word - character. Maybe it's down to how I use the M9 that I get the image quality that I like. I tend to underexpose, I use older design lenses and I never use (and don't own) the ubiquitous Lightroom or Photoshop, preferring the less common Iridient Developer to "develop" the DNG files.

For me, there is no better or worse. Just different.

Funny how now and again we see members asking how they can use LR pp to give their M240/M10 files the "M9 look". I've yet to see anyone asking how to get the M240 look from an M9 file. 🤔

Anyway, that is in regard to the resulting images. Now there are of course features which you may or need deem important and may or not need. Personally, I think image quality (I should again write "the image quality I seek"), by far outweighs slightly quieter shutters or tiny differences of viewfinder but if you NEED high ISO or LiveView or movies, bigger buffer and want an M.... then there is no question, the M240 (or sibling) is the way to go.

Way down on the list is that I prefer the more classic aesthetics of the M9 and siblings due to the presence of the frameline illuminator window, the frameline selector (which I actually use!!) and the recess on top.

Whatever works.

Edited June 23, 2020 by ianman

[alwinvrm]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

I think the M9 is the preferable camera, with nicer files, unless you need the the extra features of the M240 (Live View, EVF, Video, better low-light performance, slightly improved viewfinder) In my hands the M240 files needed more postprocessing work than the M9 ones.

 

3 hours ago, ianman said:

In a nutshell, I prefer the M9 to the M240.

In a slightly larger nutshell..., I wrote in another thread just a couple of days ago how much I dislike the endless and frankly pointless discussions about which body or lens is "better" than another. Pointless because "better" is often subjective and personal and certainly when it comes to the gear used for our favourite hobby (or profession). What is certain though is that lenses and bodies are different and produce different results. etc. etc.

 

Thanks for your replies. Cameras seem to be sold remotely based on numbers. The higher the number the 'better''.  I take pictures for about 50 years and I don't look for numbers, but I look for 'something'. That something is of course highly personal, but it is the reason why I was so curious about your answers. And you perfectly answered my question; totally subjective, not in terms of numbers, but an infinitely useful and perfect answer.

I see buying a camera more as buying a sensor. If you don't  like the sensor output, why buy the camera. Same reason why I love my Summicron 35 V1. By numbers there are no doubt 'better' 35 mm Leica lenses, but I happen to like what I see in the pics I made with this lens.

Of course one can sit, in my case, behind CaptureOne or Darktable for hours, to emulate the sensor look that you like, but life is short.

The sensor used below was HP5 since it was mentioned.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photomensch/3796423662/in/datetaken-public/

 

[jaapv]

I wouldn't have bought the M240, had I not needed the EVF for (very) long lenses; I wanted to get rid of the Viso3. I was perfectly happy with it, but I never sold the M9. When I got my CL, the M240 had to go...

[ianman]

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47 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

Of course one can sit, in my case, behind CaptureOne or Darktable for hours, to emulate the sensor look that you like, but life is short.

I agree!

I could have bought CaptureOne this past week at less than half the usual price. I nearly went for it but then thought, do I really need it? What will it bring to my photography? In fact, I got so far as to think that buying that and relying on software to improve my photos will make me a worse photographer than I am.

[capelini61]

so,  Leica launched the M9 with a low quality sensor, which I needed to change and now the sensor is terrible again not because I misused the camera but because the sensor was poorly designed and now after 8 years there was an improvement in the sensor but I have to pay for the incompetence of the company's designers, I'm going back to analog photography with my M7, digital never again, I totally lost confidence in the company

[jaapv]

Complete bollocks. The M9 sensor was the apex of CCD sensors, yes there was a corrosion problem with the coating of the cover glass, but Leica came through and replaced the sensors for free in the first five years, for half the price ever after, as long as stocks last, The redesigned cover glass (not the sensor itself)  - they actually did a redesign of  a  then seven year old sensor of ancient technology- it works flawlessly and the camera still produces images that many of us prefer over more advanced sensors. The basic sensor of the M8/M9 dates back 20 years or more by now. Quite impressive, given the results.

However, if you prefer analog photography, you will find many  similar-tuned minds in this forum. Enjoy.

[alwinvrm]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Complete baloney. The M9 sensor was the apex of CCD sensors, yes there was a corrosion problem with the coating of the cover glass, but Leica came through and replaced the sensors for free in the first five years, for half the price ever after, as long as stocks last, The redesigned cover glass (not the sensor itself)  - they actually did ... etc.

I want an M9 but I am still plagued with some doubt. Does anybody have an idea how many M9 sensors are still available. I somehow suppose Leica don't disclose things like this. Jut worried they have ran out of sensors by the time I need one.

And when I read this again it is a silly question; one should accept the risk of the 1500 euro repair and the fact that one day they will run out of parts. If I am worried about loosing money or a camera because of digital rot, I should stop whining and grab my M6 , Rolleiflex, etc.

[Jeff S]

I own the M9-based Monochrom, with new sensor replacement.  But I still carry personal insurance on it (and my other camera gear) in the event it craps out, is stolen, or for other major issues not covered by warranty.

Jeff

[pippy]

28 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

I want an M9 but I am still plagued with some doubt. Does anybody have an idea how many M9 sensors are still available?...

My very simple advice to you would be do NOT buy an M9 without the new sensor. Problem solved as there are NO reports of a gen. II sensor corroding.

Here in the UK no dealership (AFAIK) will sell the old sensor bodies unless very clearly labelled as such. Avoid eBay if you are at all unsure of what you might receive.

Once my M9's sensor was swapped-over it perfomed flawlessly for around 75,000 clicks and had I not chanced upon an M-D there is absolutely no doubt I'd still be using it now and for a long while to come.

Philip.

[ianman]

15 minutes ago, pippy said:

My very simple advice to you would be do NOT buy an M9 without the new sensor.

This.

15 minutes ago, pippy said:

Problem solved as there are NO reports of a gen. II sensor corroding.

And this.

@alwinvrm, according to your flickr account you are in The Hague. There are plenty of reputable dealers around where you can probably get a very nice M9. Maybe @jaapv can give you some leads for places in the Netherlands. IMHO it is well worth paying a little extra and buy from a dealer who will give you advice and most likely at least 6 months warranty rather than ebay or craig's list ( 😱 ).

I'm not sure if it's still running but last year Leica sold a number of refurbished, low count, M9, M9-P and M9M. It might be worth writing to them, maybe there are some still available.

 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

My very simple advice to you would be do NOT buy an M9 without the new sensor. Problem solved as there are NO reports of a gen. II sensor corroding.

Here in the UK no dealership (AFAIK) will sell the old sensor bodies unless very clearly labelled as such. Avoid eBay if you are at all unsure of what you might receive.

Once my M9's sensor was swapped-over it perfomed flawlessly for around 75,000 clicks and had I not chanced upon an M-D there is absolutely no doubt I'd still be using it now and for a long while to come.

Philip.

And Leica will supply the service history of the camera on request.

[Topsy]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Avoid eBay if you are at all unsure of what you might receive.

 

That's a bit unfair, you can get good stuff on eBay, I bought all 3 of my M9s on eBay, all with certificated replaced sensors 2nd gen and I am very happy with them. I don't anticipate needing to "upgrade" any time soon. I expect them to go on as long as any refurbished 10+ year old digital camera.

[ianman]

9 minutes ago, Topsy said:

That's a bit unfair, you can get good stuff on eBay, I bought all 3 of my M9s on eBay, all with certificated replaced sensors 2nd gen and I am very happy with them. I don't anticipate needing to "upgrade" any time soon. I expect them to go on as long as any refurbished 10+ year old digital camera.

To be fair Philip did write "Avoid eBay if you are at all unsure". 🙂

It's good that you've been fortunate with you M9s. I've bought CDs, books and cheapish things on ebay but I wouldn't dare getting anything expensive I could not see first.

[pippy]

16 minutes ago, Topsy said:

That's a bit unfair, you can get good stuff on eBay, I bought all 3 of my M9s on eBay, all with certificated replaced sensors 2nd gen and I am very happy with them...

I am in full agreement with you, Topsy, that there is good stuff to be had on the 'bay. In fact I bought my very first digi-M, an M8.2, from Leica Shop Vienna and couldn't have been happier with regards the camera or the service; both were absolutely top-notch.

Philip.

[Topsy]

9 minutes ago, ianman said:

To be fair Philip did write "Avoid eBay if you are at all unsure". 🙂

It's good that you've been fortunate with you M9s. I've bought CDs, books and cheapish things on ebay but I wouldn't dare getting anything expensive I could not see first.

True enough but I see so much bad talk about eBay and I know it can be fraught but when I was buying I asked questions of the sellers and asked for evidence of work done to replace the sensor and was never knocked back. All 3 came with paperwork although one didn't initially so I messaged the seller and he was very apologetic for his error and sent me the paperwork separately free of charge. There are good sellers on eBay still but I get that some people have been bitten.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Topsy

[Topsy]

2 minutes ago, pippy said:

I am in full agreement with you, Topsy, that there is good stuff to be had on the 'bay. In fact I bought my very first digi-M, an M8.2, from Leica Shop Vienna and couldn't have been happier with regards the camera or the service; both were absolutely top-notch.

Philip.

I think it is wise to be cautious but there are good sellers out there too as we can both attest to.

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[alwinvrm]

On 6/24/2020 at 7:49 PM, ianman said:

This.

And this.

@alwinvrm, according to your flickr account you are in The Hague. There are plenty of reputable dealers around where you can probably get a very nice M9. Maybe @jaapv can give you some leads for places in the Netherlands. IMHO it is well worth paying a little extra and buy from a dealer who will give you advice and most likely at least 6 months warranty rather than ebay or craig's list ( 😱 ).

I'm not sure if it's still running but last year Leica sold a number of refurbished, low count, M9, M9-P and M9M. It might be worth writing to them, maybe there are some still available.

 

Thanks, yes, I am back in the Hague after the UK, Middle East, and Belgium. There is a big 2nd hand Leica shop nearby. but they don't do digital bodies. There are several Leica shops within a one hour drive, though, so I am covered. I would also consider ebay, if the seller is a reputed shop or, maybe maybe privately if documentation is supplied and confirmed by Leica. I has some not so good experiences (although relatively little), so I am a bit cautious.

I do notice German sellers, but also a lot of Italian Leica auctions; why is that?