M10 the game changer?

[Ozytripper]

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You missed one point. Given the plethora of lenses, old and new, that can be used on the M240/M10, how do you think the sales projection of Leica lenses would look? And, given the small number of projected sales, what astronomical price would they be? Making for even fewer sales...

Imagine, for instance, an 80-200 4.0 M. It would have to be a complete redesign, as some of the glass types are no longer available. Price point? Certainly more than 5000 Euro, if not 6000-7000.  How many would they sell? I would guess very few... there are excellent R, Canon, Nikon, Sigma, etc. alternatives at a fraction of the price.

Jaap,

On the contrary I believe that adding more lenses and giving more variety will attract more customers. Leica needs to increase its customer base to stay alive long term.

But let me qualify, increasing customer base does not mean going downmarket. There are lot's of potential Leica users sitting on the fence. Most enthusiast photographers are keen to get smaller and lighter cameras. 

Let me share my personal experience with you. Before the M10 was released (where I am based now - not Australia) M cameras and lenses were being discount even at Leica boutiques - I presume sales were bad??

With the launch of the M10, which is selling at a premium (US $8,000), I suddenly could not buy a Lecia lens (except for the F2.5 series). Everything was sold out. Gone were the discounts too.

It can be safely assumed that the M10 is generating a new set of Leica customers (not jut existing Leica owners upgrading) because of its "USEABILITY" to the enthusiast market (useable EVF, ISO, Live View and better OVF). Of course experience M9 and M240 users have no problems with these issues but a lot of us do and that was what was stopping us from jumping back into Leica or be a new Leica customer.

Price is never an issue with Leica or Leica users. There was a waiting list for the Noctilux F0.95 for how long...?? and the 50mm F2 Apo...?? when they were launched. And they were both out of stocks after the M10 was launched

I said earlier that my wish list was

16-28mm F4

28-90mm F4

90-280mm F4

to reduce cost and weight

 

Has the 16-18-21mm F4 affected sales of the prime lenses? I doubt it. Is the price reasonable? I think so by Leica standards. Does it have exotic glass like the older 28-35-50mm F4? I don't think so

Why has the 28-35-50mm F4 version 2 especially appreciated so much and there are so few available for resale? Because demand exceeds supply. Owners won't sell and buyers are waiting. That says that there are Leica users who do want zooms (let's not start a big debate on whether the 28-35-50mm is a real zoom; although the 16-18-21mm is proven to be). 

 

The SL already has a 28-90mm (albeit F2.8) and a 90-280mm. Can they be tweaked for M? 

 

So why be so negative about price before an item is even designed. The fact that the 16-18-21mm F4 is still in production means there is a demand. Oh it was out of stock too when I bought my M10.

 

I had trouble buying 50mm F1.4, 50mm F2 Apo, 35mm F2, 16-18-21mm F4, 50mm F0.95, 90mm and 135mm Apo right after the M10 launch

 

New products attract new customers who generate more business.

 

There was a FANTASTIC ADVISE to Fuji on the net. Fuji has become a great success since the launch of the XT series. But as usual things slow down and the advise was, "Please stop asking your current customer base what they want (well any company knows the bulk of their needs anyway) and start asking potential customers what they want" if you want to expand your business

 

Can't please everyone but no harm getting new business without alienating the existing the existing customer base.

 

Slightly MISQUOTING Robert Louis Stevenson "Customers begin by resisting advances and end by blocking its retreat"

They don't want anything new but when introduced most embraces them, of course some still don't

 

Compared to the M Leica film cameras, Leica digital now has:

Live View, Video (another big discussion coming up), Histograms, AWB, etc etc

Why accept these new advances and be resistant to a change of the 16mm-135mm limitation?

If one don't need the extended range then just don't buy it. But don't stop others from wanting it from getting it

 

You for one want VIDEO in the camera, but the general consensus is to leave it out (i don't use Video and I don't care if it is in the M10 as long as I don't get charged more). How do you feel about it? So why so resistant to new M lenses? You don't have to buy it. Leica launching new lenses won't affect your ability to use vintage long telephotos on your Ms; but there are those who prefer to use dedicated M lenses - zooms and telephotos.

[jaapv]

Not resistant. Realistic.

I would welcome Leica producing whatever lens they want. However, I doubt whether they  see any merit in turning the M system into an SL system clone.

It is far more urgent to expand the lens choice for the SL.

[Ozytripper]

Not resistant. Realistic.

I would welcome Leica producing whatever lens they want. However, I doubt whether they  see any merit in turning the M system into an SL system clone.

It is far more urgent to expand the lens choice for the SL.

JAAP,

I am sorry that I misinterpreted your realistic approach for a resistant attitude, On the basis of being realistic that Leica is unlikely (sob sob) to release new lenses I agree with your vintage lens and 3rd party brand approach to fill the zoom and telephoto gap. I have also taken this practical approach by getting a Leica R 80-200 mm and am currently looking for an Apo 2X to get better reach. But the weight....

Will ultimately give me 16mm to 400mm coverage.

Still nice to be able to dream of dedicated M zooms and longer telephotos. Maybe one day....

 

This may be my first thread but I have been lurking around and reading from this forum for a while. I must say that I do have a lot of respect for your many posts and advises. I am looking forward to reading more of your posts. Learned a lot. Thank you

[Ozytripper]

I never stop being surprised by the number of people who buy an M and immediately starts wishing for zooms and long tele lenses....

Dear Adli and JDliang,

this is Soooooooooo Elitist. How many Ms does one have to buy to have a wish list? Is there a prerequisite number of Leica cameras and Lenses and number of years of embracing Leica before one is allowed to make a wish?

No wonder so many Leica users black out the red dot lest they be branded part of a elitist group.

 

ITS JUST A CAMERA FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!

 

I bought my first Leica in 1977 (nineteen seventy seven - no typo). I then dumped Leica in 2000 when I felt it no longer served my needs. The M10 brought me back to Leica again because I felt that Leica is relevant to my needs again.

Does being a Leica user since 1977 make me more ENTITLED to make a wish than someone who just bought his first Leica today? Or do I have to QUANTIFY how many Leica camera bodies and lenses I have owned to make my wish more credible?  Or quantify how many Leica lenses I have bought since buying the M10 to be able to make a wish? I certainly would not go in that direction. 

 

I was a founding member of a Watch Collector's club. Most members  (i didn't say I am one of them ) have multiple prestigious watches like Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin and Audemars Piguet just to name a few brands. I must say that NO member has EVER told a newbie member or an existing member

"you have only 1 Patek Philippe and you wish for a certain function"? or

"you only own a Casio and you want to wish for a certain function"? 

 

What is it about the RED DOT that brings up such elitist attitude in some people? Weird.

 

Photography is all about fun

Collecting watches is all about fun like any other hobby.

 

Does Leica M10 make me a better photography? No

Then why buy one? Because I like it and want one

No need for me to justify my purchase or put non Leica owners down or Leica newbies down

 

So sad. So sad

[lct]

Aside from WA and standard R lenses, i can use my R 280/4, R 180/3.4, R 135/2.8, R 90/2, R 60/2.8 macro and R 35-70/4 with no problem at all on my A7s mod. I see no reason why a modern M could not do the same with a competent EVF. 

[Ozytripper]

Ozy

 

with respect if you want to use a 400mm lens then get a DSLR.

 

The M's are fantastic cameras but are not the universal camera that a DSLR is. 

 

This doesn't detract from the M cameras at all it's just being realistic. 

 

To me the M240 can focus a Leica M 135mm lens just fine and can also work brilliantly with the Leica M 18mm lens - so why would i want to add Heath Robinson adaptors to use SLR lenses and other extreme tele lenses??

 

If I want to use a long lens then I use the camera that is designed to do that - either a DSLR or more recently a Fuji XT1.

 

Thats how I see it!

If you have read my earlier posts you will know that I had:

a Canon 5D3 with lenses from 16mm to 400mm plus a 1.4X teleconverter

Dumped the system for the weight

 

I now own a Fuji XT2 and Xpro2 with lenses from 10mm to 400mm with a 1,4X teleconverter giving me a full frame equivalent reach of 800mm

Much lighter. Happy with the quality too.

 

I don't wish to carry 2 systems when I travel. I'd love an extended M range - a wish list. May happen may not happen.

That's all

[Lord Lucan]

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Can someone let me know when there is a lens called "LATE"

[jaapv]

That's a nice idea I think I'll put the MR-Telyt 500 (albeit not Visoflex) on the GX8 and see what happens

[Ozytripper]

Just a quick point:-

 

If you have the XT2 and by chance any Visoflex lenses, then have you thought about using these on the XT2?

 

Reason I ask is that I have most of the old Visoflex lenses that can't be used on the M240 without the adaptor (I believe that Novoflex make one) BUT with a cheap Ebay adaptor for Viso to Fuji they work really well on the Fuji X bodies using the built in EVF.

 

The old 400mm F6.8 Telyt is a STUNNING lens on the Fuji because of course only the sharpest middle of the lens is used. A great to use lightweight combination and especially with the handgrip and shoulder stock.

I don't have any Visoflex lenses.

Good suggestion but since I already have 16mm to 800mm covered in my Fuji system there is no need to add any more to the range

Weight and size are the main issues for me

The reason I would like some new M lenses was because I will sell my Fuji system too as I don't need 2 systems.

In the meantime I'll just live with the situation

[jmahto]

I don't have any Visoflex lenses.

Good suggestion but since I already have 16mm to 800mm covered in my Fuji system there is no need to add any more to the range

Weight and size are the main issues for me

The reason I would like some new M lenses was because I will sell my Fuji system too as I don't need 2 systems.

In the meantime I'll just live with the situation

Ozytripper, Welcome to the forum. I can feel your enthusiasm since I felt the same way when I moved to M240 (from M9) and LV opened up the possibilities of long lenses and one camera system.In last three years of experimenting with all sorts of combos (and discussing wishlist), here is where I am right now:

 

- I am convinced that FF is not a light platform for long lens if one wishes light weight and reach. Jaap has already moved to M4/3 sensor. His reasons and excellent results are just a search away in this forum. As for myself, I have fallen back to APS-C format for using long manual lenses for similar reasons. I recognize that a modern M4/3 is better but continue using APS-C since I find it a nice compromise for my use (occasional use as slight crop backup body for FF). My journey is also documented in various threads here.

 

- I have realized that ease of focusing trumps everything else for long lenses (even over weight and quality). For example, I find focusing my cheap Konica 135mm Hexanon easier than excellent 80-200R at similar focal length. After numerous experiments, I have found my own set of long lenses that work for me. This is something you have to find out for yourself. This requires lots of experimentation and developing focusing skill. Or you simply go back to auto focus M4/3 setup (as Jaap uses).

 

- With the previous two points, you can see that my initial long lens enthusiasm with M240 has dampened quite a bit. I do have many manual focus long lenses (couple of 135s, couple of zooms, 400 telyt etc.) but I rarely use them. For rare occasions when I need reach (for birding etc.) I reach out for 400mm Telyt R on my APS-C Sony and find it delight to use. It is easy to focus (see my second point) and center is sharp, sharp, sharp (I have shot Saturn with visible ring) and the front/back bokeh is lovely. Rest every thing remains unused.

 

- If I still do have a remaining wishlist then I would like Leica to create 2X APO extender for M lenses. This will turn my excellent 90mm macro-elmar M to 180mm in a lighter package. That will be something!

 

- Oh! Last one. Since there is no 2x extender for M (I know there is an ancient non-leica one but there is no modern one), I have found that I can use excellent 2X APO R adapeter with 135mm tele-elmar head and get an excellent 135mm and 270mm option for M240 in reasonably compact form. It is a frankenstein setup though (pics below) but I see this as plus since I can disassemble it and stuff my coat pockets with pieces. Very stealth, isn't it!

 

It will be interesting to listen to stories from your journey in this forum in coming months/years.

 

135mm head with R adapeter

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135mm head with R adapter + 2X APO (the lens setup is just under 2lb. For an excellent 270mm f/8 lens, it is reasonable wight for me since it also gives me 135mm after removing extender).

BTW, this setup also turns into a reasonable good macro setup by placing a (weighs almost nothing extra) 16471 extension tube in between. This is where I salute German engineering.

 

[jmahto]

That's a nice idea I think I'll put the MR-Telyt 500 (albeit not Visoflex) on the GX8 and see what happens

 

I will bet nothing will happen..

 

...unless you go out and shoot something.

(It's Friday)

[jaapv]

Nothing will happen. It is raining cats and dogs...

[Ozytripper]

Ozytripper, Welcome to the forum. I can feel your enthusiasm since I felt the same way when I moved to M240 (from M9) and LV opened up the possibilities of long lenses and one camera system.In last three years of experimenting with all sorts of combos (and discussing wishlist), here is where I am right now:

 

- I am convinced that FF is not a light platform for long lens if one wishes light weight and reach. Jaap has already moved to M4/3 sensor. His reasons and excellent results are just a search away in this forum. As for myself, I have fallen back to APS-C format for using long manual lenses for similar reasons. I recognize that a modern M4/3 is better but continue using APS-C since I find it a nice compromise for my use (occasional use as slight crop backup body for FF). My journey is also documented in various threads here.

 

- I have realized that ease of focusing trumps everything else for long lenses (even over weight and quality). For example, I find focusing my cheap Konica 135mm Hexanon easier than excellent 80-200R at similar focal length. After numerous experiments, I have found my own set of long lenses that work for me. This is something you have to find out for yourself. This requires lots of experimentation and developing focusing skill. Or you simply go back to auto focus M4/3 setup (as Jaap uses).

 

- With the previous two points, you can see that my initial long lens enthusiasm with M240 has dampened quite a bit. I do have many manual focus long lenses (couple of 135s, couple of zooms, 400 telyt etc.) but I rarely use them. For rare occasions when I need reach (for birding etc.) I reach out for 400mm Telyt R on my APS-C Sony and find it delight to use. It is easy to focus (see my second point) and center is sharp, sharp, sharp (I have shot Saturn with visible ring) and the front/back bokeh is lovely. Rest every thing remains unused.

 

- If I still do have a remaining wishlist then I would like Leica to create 2X APO extender for M lenses. This will turn my excellent 90mm macro-elmar M to 180mm in a lighter package. That will be something!

 

- Oh! Last one. Since there is no 2x extender for M (I know there is an ancient non-leica one but there is no modern one), I have found that I can use excellent 2X APO R adapeter with 135mm tele-elmar head and get an excellent 135mm and 270mm option for M240 in reasonably compact form. It is a frankenstein setup though (pics below) but I see this as plus since I can disassemble it and stuff my coat pockets with pieces. Very stealth, isn't it!

 

It will be interesting to listen to stories from your journey in this forum in coming months/years.

 

135mm head with R adapeter

exp_sm_20160211135tele_elmar_head-4750.jpg

 

135mm head with R adapter + 2X APO (the lens setup is just under 2lb. For an excellent 270mm f/8 lens, it is reasonable wight for me since it also gives me 135mm after removing extender).

BTW, this setup also turns into a reasonable good macro setup by placing a (weighs almost nothing extra) 16471 extension tube in between. This is where I salute German engineering.

exp_sm_20160211135tele_elmar_head-4751.jpg

 

Hi Jayant,

 

thank you so much for your warm welcome and good to know that I am not the only one to want longer telephoto lenses.

I agree with you totally that ease of focusing comes first. That is why I left Leica back in 2000. All these years I missed the Leica Magic that I was getting with my film/slides (all of which were unfortunately destroyed by mould when I was transferred to Singapore).

 

I tried both the M9 and M240 but found that I still could not use them properly but the M10 was adequate for me. Improvements could be made in the EVF and in focus peaking. When I use Leica lenses on my fuji (XT2 or Xpro2) the whole image lights up with focus peaking while the same lens shooting the same image on the M10, I will be lucky to see 3 or 4 specks of focus peaking

The rangefinder is great for wide to normal lenses for me (except the Noctilux). Image stabilization will also be a welcome for me.

 

I like your experiments and I will likely buy the R 2x Apo. That should serve my travel needs until new M long telephotos and zooms eventuate (or not)

When I travel I now take the 16-18-21, 28-35-50, 35mm F1.4 (or 50mm F1.4) and the R80-200mm. With the addition of the R 2X Apo I will have all the range I need. A very compact travel package with the exception of the R 80-200mm. Good for everything I want to shoot except for birds in flight (for that I use my Fuji Auto Focus)

 

Looking at the sizes of my R lenses and their M counterparts makes me wish for M long telephotos. M lenses are definitely much smaller. 

Your suggestion of starting with an M 2X Apo is certainly practical. That will give me 16mm to 270mm coverage if I add the 135mm tele to my arsenal. Good enough for most travel destinations. 

 

I have also considered the Olympus 1 Mk2 (drooling over the Leica Panasonic 100-400mm). 5 seconds hand held shooting capabilities and 800mm reach in such a tiny package. But I am happy with my M10 and really don't want to build another system. 

 

Thanks again for sharing your very unique adaptations and experiments. Your combinations look real cool.  

[stevenhacker]

While Ozzytripper raises several fine points and recommendations, referring to anything as a "game changer" raises the bar very significantly and perhaps needlessly. My first Leica digital, the M 8, in retrospect, was really a very crude instrument. That is why I quickly replaced it with the 8.2 and then also quickly replaced it with the M 9. Each iteration was an improvement over its predecessor. No doubt, my M 10 is the best of breed and it excites me everyday. Let's just hope that Leica stays true to the pedigree and when the next M is introduced it, like the M 10 will be hailed as "the best yet".

[arno_nyhm]

As jaap noted, the M3 and the M8 were the 'game changers'. One started it all, and even Leica once said a digital version wasn't feasible.

 

Jeff

 

not even the M3 changed any game. contax had the II and later the IIa with combined range/viewfinders for years before leica came up with their M3. leica sticked with their viewfinder and extra coupled rangefinder until then.

 

the M8 might be called the gamechanger. as soon as it showed up on the market, the price for old leicaglass went up and it was the first time since ages that people want4ed to buy more leica equipment than leica would be able to deliver. but then again this gamechanging only relates to leica itself.

 

what i would expect from a gamechanger is, that it is relevant to a whole market of camerausers. for example the X100 was the gamechanger when it brought together ovf-needs, evf-needs and the needs of all those lifeviewusers out there in one single camera. unfortunately it had only one fixed lens and was too expensive for the wide masses, but it was the first one to give the evf/ovf to everyone.

[jmahto]

.... 

I tried both the M9 and M240 but found that I still could not use them properly but the M10 was adequate for me. Improvements could be made in the EVF and in focus peaking. When I use Leica lenses on my fuji (XT2 or Xpro2) the whole image lights up with focus peaking while the same lens shooting the same image on the M10, I will be lucky to see 3 or 4 specks of focus peaking

.....

Although no doubt, M10's EVF is much improved over M240's, I have no problem using it and able to focus on M240. One comment on the focus peaking. I prefer M240's algorithm (which is more critical) than my Sony's (which also lights up more than necessary even in finer setting). It also depends on the lens. In any case, relying on peaking for fine focusing doesn't work for me. I use magnification almost all the time and it is simple to use.

 

The following is taken yesterday with M240+80-200Vario R wide open at f/4. I compared the same shot with my cheap Minolta 135mm Tele-Rokkor-X and it does get close but I ended up choosing the one from 80-200 Vario. This was like a blind test for me. Even if 80-200VArio is heavy, I can't get rid off it. There is some hidden magic to it.  

 

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BTW, I bought this lens from David Young few years ago. See his review here. I hope I am doing justice to his lens.

http://www.furnfeather.ca/RevPDF/First%20Impressions%20Vario.pdf

[Jeff S]

not even the M3 changed any game. contax had the II and later the IIa with combined range/viewfinders for years before leica came up with their M3. leica sticked with their viewfinder and extra coupled rangefinder until then.

 

the M8 might be called the gamechanger. as soon as it showed up on the market, the price for old leicaglass went up and it was the first time since ages that people want4ed to buy more leica equipment than leica would be able to deliver. but then again this gamechanging only relates to leica itself.

 

what i would expect from a gamechanger is, that it is relevant to a whole market of camerausers. for example the X100 was the gamechanger when it brought together ovf-needs, evf-needs and the needs of all those lifeviewusers out there in one single camera. unfortunately it had only one fixed lens and was too expensive for the wide masses, but it was the first one to give the evf/ovf to everyone.

Last I checked, Contax bit the dust and Leica is still here with no real RF competition, including to the M8 and all of its successors, with the ability to use most all lenses from over 50 years ago with a digital version of the same basic body. Survivors without competition. If not game changing, the only game in town. And you only relate to lens prices?

 

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

Actually, I think the M10 is a game changer for Leica.  Til it came along, the M9 was the camera which saved Leica, and was a huge success; the M10 looks like it will be a similar success, where the M240 perhaps wasn't ... at least, not as much.

[adan]

not even the M3 changed any game. contax had the II and later the IIa with combined range/viewfinders for years before leica came up with their M3. leica sticked with their viewfinder and extra coupled rangefinder until then.

 

Well, at the 1954 photokina, where Leitz introduced the M3, the CEO of Zeiss came over to Ernst Leitz II, shook his hand, and said, "You win!" The reason being that, while Contax had an earlier combined rf/vf, it was always strictly a 50mm viewfinder. They'd never cracked the problem Leica solved, of having changing framelines for 3 different lenses (50/90/135) within the main finder. Contax never did achieve that (but Nikon did, with the SP, three years later).

 

But the M3 was the first time Leica did surpass Contax in engineering, and making the more "modern" camera. It was all downhill for the original Contax/Zeiss after that, although the Japanese revival of the brand certainly had a good run later.

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[jaapv]

 

Hi Jayant,

 

thank you so much for your warm welcome and good to know that I am not the only one to want longer telephoto lenses.

I agree with you totally that ease of focusing comes first. That is why I left Leica back in 2000. All these years I missed the Leica Magic that I was getting with my film/slides (all of which were unfortunately destroyed by mould when I was transferred to Singapore).

 

I tried both the M9 and M240 but found that I still could not use them properly but the M10 was adequate for me. Improvements could be made in the EVF and in focus peaking. When I use Leica lenses on my fuji (XT2 or Xpro2) the whole image lights up with focus peaking while the same lens shooting the same image on the M10, I will be lucky to see 3 or 4 specks of focus peaking

The rangefinder is great for wide to normal lenses for me (except the Noctilux). Image stabilization will also be a welcome for me.

 

I like your experiments and I will likely buy the R 2x Apo. That should serve my travel needs until new M long telephotos and zooms eventuate (or not)

When I travel I now take the 16-18-21, 28-35-50, 35mm F1.4 (or 50mm F1.4) and the R80-200mm. With the addition of the R 2X Apo I will have all the range I need. A very compact travel package with the exception of the R 80-200mm. Good for everything I want to shoot except for birds in flight (for that I use my Fuji Auto Focus)

 

Looking at the sizes of my R lenses and their M counterparts makes me wish for M long telephotos. M lenses are definitely much smaller. 

Your suggestion of starting with an M 2X Apo is certainly practical. That will give me 16mm to 270mm coverage if I add the 135mm tele to my arsenal. Good enough for most travel destinations. 

 

I have also considered the Olympus 1 Mk2 (drooling over the Leica Panasonic 100-400mm). 5 seconds hand held shooting capabilities and 800mm reach in such a tiny package. But I am happy with my M10 and really don't want to build another system. 

 

Thanks again for sharing your very unique adaptations and experiments. Your combinations look real cool.  

One point: There is an inverse relationship between accuracy and visibility for Focus Peaking. Sony has chosen "in your face" at the price of inexact focusing, which does not matter as most users will be mounting slowish zoom lenses, with enough DOF, but Leica opted for accuracy with fast lenses. Additonally, Sony intends focus peaking to be used with medium focal lengths, whilst Leica, having a rangefinder, intends the use with long lenses and macro, which is where it works best.