CJJon Posted June 23, 2017 Share #21 Posted June 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am quoting the legal position. I have an extensive background in consumer protection. You will not lose your legal rights if the camera is repaired. Leica should return it to you working fully in accordance with its original specifications which includes the ability to produce all specified image quality types. The firmware issue is a red herring and will apply to all M10 owners anyway. William Correct, however I think the OP's concern would be that after the initial cost of repair that there might be yet more costs if Leica is wrong and the card issue isn't software based. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Hi CJJon, Take a look here Seriously Worried about my M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted June 23, 2017 Share #22 Posted June 23, 2017 [...] Chances are that the fault will be mended anyway just by disassembling and re-assembling the camera. Yes and the OP would get a Leica warranty for the repairs. No brainer to get them done IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share #23 Posted June 23, 2017 Yes and the OP would get a Leica warranty for the repairs. No brainer to get them done IMHO. You say it's a no brainer. But if there's a possibility that further expensive repairs turn out to be necessary, not only will there be the risk of the camera failing during shooting and losing even more photos than I already have, there's then the gross inconvenience of another very long wait without the camera. And in addition, there's the real prospect of having sacrificed the possibility of the camera being considered a write-off by the insurance company. Surely it would be better to have the problem properly diagnosed now rather than just relying on Leica's legal obligation to get it working eventually wouldn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsydaus Posted June 23, 2017 Share #24 Posted June 23, 2017 A rangefinder recall shouldn't cost $3,000 ponds. What on earth was damaged!? :-( I'm really sorry to hear that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozu_shutterbugger Posted June 23, 2017 Share #25 Posted June 23, 2017 Any repair by Leica should return the camera to its original functional specifications. You should seek a warranty from them to this effect. The comment about new firmware sounds like a 'lazy man's red herring'. That will happen anyway one way or the other. William I agree. Now I don't know if Leica would turn around and change their estimates like a car mechanic. Their work will be warranted by them. If I were you I would get it repaired by them. Btw eBay there are many buyers who buy equipment for parts you might be able to sell the m10 for 3 grand or more. If your then sell it and then add another grand or two for a new m10 or m240? You have the box the manual the battery everything. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 23, 2017 Share #26 Posted June 23, 2017 [...] Surely it would be better to have the problem properly diagnosed now rather than just relying on Leica's legal obligation to get it working eventually wouldn't it? You are entitled to ask for a survey i guess but how much are you willing to pay for that? This is Leica here, only actual risk is to have to wait during repairs if you ask me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted June 23, 2017 Share #27 Posted June 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I suspect the card cage in the camera has sustained some damage and is not making proper contact with the card. Whether another card would work properly would be a good test, too bad you sent it off without doing that. Personally, I am very leery of repairs to such extensive damage from a hard impact with any camera (or car for that matter!). You've already said the fault was entirely yours, has nothing to do with Leica, so the notion of getting it repaired is a choice you have to make that might save you a chunk of money but might never fully resolve all the possible consequences of that hard impact. Holding Leica responsible for such difficult to determine and consequential damage is fundamentally unfair—just like when my Mercedes SLK230 was rear-ended, extensively damaging the complex trunk lid/convertible top mechanism, I could never hold the repair shop responsible if there were continuing, ongoing, consequential issues with it. I told them that outright and suggested that if the car was close to the salvage/no salvage point on the insurance estimate, just let it go and I'd work with whatever the 'total loss' payout might be. It cost me about $4000 that I wasn't planning to spend at the time, but paying that rather than dealing with a complex mechanism that had been bent, unbent, and would likely forever need minor periodic adjustments was worth the money to me. My own take on this accident would be to write it off as a bad deal and just buy another new M10 that I could be confident and secure would have no lurking problems that I caused, and that whatever problems it might have would be fairly and fully Leica's responsibility to resolve. Peace of mind is much more important to me than a couple thousand dollars. Good luck with it, whatever you decide to do! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share #28 Posted June 23, 2017 I suspect the card cage in the camera has sustained some damage and is not making proper contact with the card. Whether another card would work properly would be a good test, too bad you sent it off without doing that. Personally, I am very leery of repairs to such extensive damage from a hard impact with any camera (or car for that matter!). You've already said the fault was entirely yours, has nothing to do with Leica, so the notion of getting it repaired is a choice you have to make that might save you a chunk of money but might never fully resolve all the possible consequences of that hard impact. Holding Leica responsible for such difficult to determine and consequential damage is fundamentally unfair—just like when my Mercedes SLK230 was rear-ended, extensively damaging the complex trunk lid/convertible top mechanism, I could never hold the repair shop responsible if there were continuing, ongoing, consequential issues with it. I told them that outright and suggested that if the car was close to the salvage/no salvage point on the insurance estimate, just let it go and I'd work with whatever the 'total loss' payout might be. It cost me about $4000 that I wasn't planning to spend at the time, but paying that rather than dealing with a complex mechanism that had been bent, unbent, and would likely forever need minor periodic adjustments was worth the money to me. My own take on this accident would be to write it off as a bad deal and just buy another new M10 that I could be confident and secure would have no lurking problems that I caused, and that whatever problems it might have would be fairly and fully Leica's responsibility to resolve. Peace of mind is much more important to me than a couple thousand dollars. Good luck with it, whatever you decide to do! Thank you. I doubt that it's simply a matter of not making proper contact inside the camera, since photos on the card from before the accident are equally affected, even though the card appears not to be damaged since it works perfectly in other cameras. I'm really not holding Leica responsible for anything other than poor communication and a slightly complacent approach to their diagnosis which appears to be no more than a guess. Fine, except that it will cost me £3,000 to find out whether they're guess is right, when I strongly expect that it isn't. Poor odds for inexpert me, but am I willing to bet £5,800 that I know better? No, not having spent so much so recently. But I don't mean to whinge. Just looking for alternative suggestions really, so thank you for taking the trouble to reply. Genuinely appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Share #29 Posted June 23, 2017 You may or may not know that I had an unpleasant accident with my 2-month old M10 which I managed to crash to the hard and unforgiving ground a few weeks ago. I blame no one but myself for that. There was some cosmetic damage to the camera and two internal problems; the rangefinder went badly out of alignment and more worryingly, it could no longer create RAW files, and the Jpegs coming out of it couldn't be edited in any way in Lightroom. So, useless. OK, I knew it would be an expensive repair, but not as worrying as it's now turning out. Leica have given me an estimate very close to £3,000 for the repair but crucially that doesn't include the file problem which they say is just a firmware/ Lightroom issue due to LR not reading the SD card I was using, and will be corrected in the next FW update. They are mistaken. Before the accident the files were fine, using the same SD card. After it they are not usable. That is not a coincidental firmware issue. So What do I do? Having just spent £5,800 on the camera, do I spend another £3000 to get it in a cosmetically acceptable but functionally useless condition, hoping with no foundation whatsoever that some miracle FW update fixes what is clearly a far more substantial internal problem, probably with the processor itself, or do I not risk the repair cost but write off the entire purchase price and bin the camera? I'm trying to get Leica to see sense but at the moment, no response. Needless to say, I am worried and not at all happy. I've never had a problem with Leica before, going back to the 1980s, but this is seriously shaking my confidence. Oh I do feel for you Peter, so early in ownership too. Did you try a different card after damage happened? Anyway I hope you can resolve one way or another to your satisfaction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 23, 2017 Share #30 Posted June 23, 2017 Peter, if at all possible I hope you can minimize the loss at least partially through insurance. To me, it is a write-off. Personally, I would put the camera aside without risking repair. The situation is similar to a horrific bicycle crash I had. Because of the expensive damaged CF the manufacturer could not repair. It was an expensive case. (Oh, the surgeon could make no guarantees, either. ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted June 23, 2017 Share #31 Posted June 23, 2017 As Phillipp and ramarren mention, it's almost certain there is physical damage that is causing your SD card problems. And there is no way Leica could pass your repaired camera through their QC process without seeing that. It won't even get to that point... the damaged part(s) will be quickly identified when the tech takes your camera apart. No worries. I would disregard the comment about this being a firmware issue. I'm sure that's just a knee-jerk response to any SD read/write issue. Spend the money to get it fixed and you should be good to go, Peter. Sorry for the accident! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rus Posted June 23, 2017 Share #32 Posted June 23, 2017 You have my sympathy, Peter. I hope things will work out somehow eventually. And I must confess that when I read your original post earlier I was of the mind that the repair (so early in ownership) would simply be fully covered by warranty. Guess I have been too naive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share #33 Posted June 23, 2017 Thanks for all the support. I do appreciate that there are people with far worse problems than a dead Leica to worry about, but still... And I admit it irks me that in all my decades of buying Leicas with passport protection I've never once made the slightest claim on them. And as soon as they take the Passport away, this happens. Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad with things like this. Still, maybe I'll just stick with my M9 or maybe sell it and buy a Hasselblad or Fuji or something.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsprow Posted June 23, 2017 Share #34 Posted June 23, 2017 I suggest contacting your insurance company ASAP, explain the situation and what you've been told by Leica (and your concerns that further repairs might be needed) and see if they will just compensate you for a replacement camera. They well might. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted June 23, 2017 Share #35 Posted June 23, 2017 In my point of view Leica's reply puts you in a very comfortable position. Their letter confirms that your fault had no impact on the camera functionality. If there is any problem left after return of the camera, it is Leica's duty to sort it out. It would be very strange if they turn the position and put any problem to your fault. Regards Steve Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_OOF Posted June 23, 2017 Share #36 Posted June 23, 2017 Peter, unfortunately I can not give you any good advice but simply I wish to give you my empathic closeness and sorrow for what happened to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric1 Posted June 23, 2017 Share #37 Posted June 23, 2017 Totally sucks and if it worries you I would just seek a full replacement. Unfortunately, almost any camera dropped is going to sustain some damage, even a smartphone or a lens. Ive dropped a camera before but luckily it still works though the autofocus sometimes is glitchy. Always a good idea to be mindful when using a camera, especially a Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted June 23, 2017 Share #38 Posted June 23, 2017 Well, a repair estimate of 3,000 GBP seems like a hefty amount: my guess is that they have concluded that they need to change several components inside the camera. I very much doubt that after such extensive work they could return to you - and give you a guarantee for - a camera without performing a full functional test. I wouldn't be excessively worried. They probably misunderstood or misread your observations regarding the SD writing issue and gave you the boilerplate answer to any question containing the words "M10" and "SD card". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted June 23, 2017 Share #39 Posted June 23, 2017 Correct, however I think the OP's concern would be that after the initial cost of repair that there might be yet more costs if Leica is wrong and the card issue isn't software based. What I am saying is, that from a legal perspective, their should be no more costs once Leica does the repair. If the camera still does not work according to specifications, then Leica would be legally obliged to fix it free of charge. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 23, 2017 Share #40 Posted June 23, 2017 For that money I'd want to know: will it look like new again? Will they replace every damaged part including cosmetic damage (chips/dents etc) with new parts? Obviously minor scratches or wear and tear not associated with the drop being excluded. If the answer is no you may find any cosmetic flaws that remain to constantly nag and remind you of the traumatic incident. I wouldn't worry about functionality however because Leica should ensure that's all good. So if you can get them to "make it look like new" you'll probably be better off with repair. Without having seen the damage however I can't guess how likely that might be so maybe it's best to put it all behind you, get a new one then recover some money from the broken Leica. It's likely you'll be able to secure a new camera quicker than Leica can repair the broken one, so that's something to consider as well. It's a tough one and it really comes down to what your insurer will do but I'd probably want a new one sooner or later. Sad to here stories like this but know that many of us here have had similar accidents or losses with Leica or otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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