Seriously Worried about my M10

[Peter H]

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You may or may not know that I had an unpleasant accident with my 2-month old M10 which I managed to crash to the hard and unforgiving ground a few weeks ago. I blame no one but myself for that.

 

There was some cosmetic damage to the camera and two internal problems; the rangefinder went badly out of alignment and more worryingly, it could no longer create RAW files, and the Jpegs coming out of it couldn't be edited in any way in Lightroom. So, useless.

 

OK, I knew it would be an expensive repair, but not as worrying as it's now turning out.

 

Leica have given me an estimate very close to £3,000 for the repair but crucially that doesn't include the file problem which they say is just a firmware/ Lightroom issue due to LR not reading the SD card I was using, and will be corrected in the next FW update.

 

They are mistaken. Before the accident the files were fine, using the same SD card. After it they are not usable. That is not a coincidental firmware issue.

 

So What do I do?

 

Having just spent £5,800 on the camera, do I spend another £3000 to get it in a cosmetically acceptable but functionally useless condition, hoping with no foundation whatsoever that some miracle FW update fixes what is clearly a far more substantial internal problem, probably with the processor itself, or do I not risk the repair cost but write off the entire purchase price and bin the camera?

 

I'm trying to get Leica to see sense but at the moment, no response. Needless to say, I am worried and not at all happy. I've never had a problem with Leica before, going back to the 1980s, but this is seriously shaking my confidence.

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[jaapv]

 The SD card problem is well documented, and the variation between different cameras is clear as well, so I can imagine Leica putting this issue on the backburner for your camera, especially as the firmware update to address the problem appears to be coming along well, and might well be in place before your camera is repaired, making the whole issue moot. I would not worry about it.

[almoore]

Other than further potential delay, I don't think there's anything to worry about.

 

If the camera isn't writing normal files to the card on its return, they have an obligation to remedy the situation. And at no additional cost as they assure you there's no current problem.

[Peter H]

The SD card problem is well documented, and the variation between different cameras is clear as well, so I can imagine Leica putting this issue on the backburner for your camera, especially as the firmware update to address the problem appears to be coming along well, and might well be in place before your camera is repaired, making the whole issue moot. I would not worry about it.

Sorry Jaap, I don't quite understand your point. Until the accident the camera was working perfectly. No firmware issues at all. What has the wider firmware question to do with this specific repair? Should it not come back to me working properly?

 

I very strongly suspect the processor is damaged and that the firmware issue, though real, is a red herring in this case, and I really don't want to spend £3000 on a repair that may not address the main damage problem.

 

The camera should perhaps be considered a write-off in the sense that it would probably be more sensible to replace it with a new one than pour so much money into what will always be a slightly flawed item, or worse.

[almoore]

Before the accident the files were fine, using the same SD card. After it they are not usable...

After the accident, did you try a different card?

 

It might be unlikely, but it's not impossible that the card sustained impact damage from the fall.

[stephen.w]

Sorry Jaap, I don't quite understand your point. Until the accident the camera was working perfectly. No firmware issues at all. What has the wider firmware question to do with this specific repair? Should it not come back to me working properly?

 

I very strongly suspect the processor is damaged and that the firmware issue, though real, is a red herring in this case, and I really don't want to spend £3000 on a repair that may not address the main damage problem.

 

The camera should perhaps be considered a write-off in the sense that it would probably be more sensible to replace it with a new one than pour so much money into what will always be a slightly flawed item, or worse.

 

What a nightmare, I am sorry Peter. 

 

Is the camera with Leica? Do they claim to have tested for the fault? Maybe send them before-and-after DNGs and ask them what they make of the discrepancy?

 

edit: or before-and-after JPEGs at least.

[Peter H]

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After the accident, did you try a different card?

 

It might be unlikely, but it's not impossible that the card sustained impact damage from the fall.

 

No, I didn't try another card. I wish I had, although I very strongly believe that, since the card still works perfectly in other cameras just as it did in the M10 before the accident, it is the camera that is damaged. It isn't card damage or a sudden incompatibility issue.

 

 

What a nightmare, I am sorry Peter. 

 

Is the camera with Leica? Do they claim to have tested for the fault? Maybe send them before-and-after DNGs and ask them what they make of the discrepancy?

 

edit: or before-and-after JPEGs at least.

 

 

 

Thanks Stephen.

 

Yes the camera is with Leica. The dealer who sent it to Leica for me told me they wouldn't need the card as they would test it with their own cards, so I still have it. Leica haven't specified whether they have tested the camera for this fault, they've just said it's a FW issue that will be resolved soon, which is another reason why I'm feeling uneasy. It feels as though they have assumed it to be a card/compatibility problem. As I mentioned above, the card still works perfectly.

 

It certainly leaves me uneasy about going ahead with a  repair that might turn a £5,800 write-off into an unreliable £8,800 camera.

[pgk]

After the accident, did you try a different card?

 

It might be unlikely, but it's not impossible that the card sustained impact damage from the fall.

 

If the camera was switched on (or even if it wasn't come to that) at the time of the accident it is not impossible that some erroneous data transfer was made to the card due to the impact (multiple switches/buttons simultaneously operating?) which might have caused some corruption to the card. Have you also tried reformatting the card in SD formatter? 

[willeica]

Any repair by Leica should return the camera to its original functional specifications. You should seek a warranty from them to this effect. The comment about new firmware sounds like a 'lazy man's red herring'. That will happen anyway one way or the other.

 

William

[pgk]

No, I didn't try another card. I wish I had, although I very strongly believe that, since the card still works perfectly in other cameras just as it did in the M10 before the accident, it is the camera that is damaged. It isn't card damage or a sudden incompatibility issue.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Stephen.

 

Yes the camera is with Leica. The dealer who sent it to Leica for me told me they wouldn't need the card as they would test it with their own cards, so I still have it. Leica haven't specified whether they have tested the camera for this fault, they've just said it's a FW issue that will be resolved soon, which is another reason why I'm feeling uneasy. It feels as though they have assumed it to be a card/compatibility problem. As I mentioned above, the card still works perfectly.

 

It certainly leaves me uneasy about going ahead with a  repair that might turn a £5,800 write-off into an unreliable £8,800 camera.

I am no expert but could it be that the 'file structure' on the card was corrupted for the M10 hence the card files cannot be found correctly when transferring. Did you check to see if the camera could find any pre-existing RAW files on the card after the accident - if it couldn't it then it might be a card problem.

 

Why don't you tell Leica your concerns directly and see if they respond differently?

[Peter H]

If the camera was switched on (or even if it wasn't come to that) at the time of the accident it is not impossible that some erroneous data transfer was made to the card due to the impact (multiple switches/buttons simultaneously operating?) which might have caused some corruption to the card. Have you also tried reformatting the card in SD formatter? 

The card's OK. It works perfectly.

 

Yes, it might have been a temporary issue just affecting the files on the card at the time of the impact, but Leica's diagnosis doesn't agree, so something is wrong somewhere. 

 

 

The least likely explanation seems to be Leica's.

 

 

Any repair by Leica should return the camera to its original functional specifications. You should seek a warranty from them to this effect. The comment about new firmware sounds like a 'lazy man's red herring'. That will happen anyway one way or the other.

 

William

 

Agreed. A worry, however, is that I'll spend £3,000 on a repair to get a camera back that hasn't been fixed, and will need to go back to them again, and still won't get looked at properly until they're convinced that the FW update won't solve everything.

 

Not the sort of attention I'd expect in a £3,000 repair job. I'd like them to look at it properly now, and not guess at what the problem may be.

[LeicaR10]

Peter,  Sorry to hear about your M10.  Not to change the subject, but perhaps you can claim the repair on your home insurance or if you charged it, many credit card companies have insurance for breakage if the item was bought using the card.  Just a thought.

r/ Mark

[Peter H]

Peter,  Sorry to hear about your M10.  Not to change the subject, but perhaps you can claim the repair on your home insurance or if you charged it, many credit card companies have insurance for breakage if the item was bought using the card.  Just a thought.

r/ Mark

 

 

Thanks, yes, the insurance should cover it but at the moment I don't want to give them the repair estimate in case it changes when they realise that there's a bigger problem that means the camera isn't worth repairing but needs replacing. 

 

I suppose it's my confidence in the camera that is really at issue now. That, and what feels like Leica's complacent attitude. But this may be unfair. If only they were more communicative.

[microview]

Possibly ask Leica for cost of new M10 rather than repair, and then negotiate balance with insurers, given your concerns? Best of luck.

[willeica]

The card's OK. It works perfectly.

 

Yes, it might have been a temporary issue just affecting the files on the card at the time of the impact, but Leica's diagnosis doesn't agree, so something is wrong somewhere. 

 

 

The least likely explanation seems to be Leica's.

 

 

 

Agreed. A worry, however, is that I'll spend £3,000 on a repair to get a camera back that hasn't been fixed, and will need to go back to them again, and still won't get looked at properly until they're convinced that the FW update won't solve everything.

 

Not the sort of attention I'd expect in a £3,000 repair job. I'd like them to look at it properly now, and not guess at what the problem may be.

 

I am quoting the legal position. I have an extensive background in consumer protection. You will not lose your legal rights if the camera is repaired. Leica should return it to you working fully in accordance with its original specifications which includes the ability to produce all specified image quality types. The firmware issue is a red herring and will apply to all M10 owners anyway.

 

William

[pgk]

Thanks, yes, the insurance should cover it but at the moment I don't want to give them the repair estimate in case it changes when they realise that there's a bigger problem that means the camera isn't worth repairing but needs replacing. 

 

I suppose it's my confidence in the camera that is really at issue now. That, and what feels like Leica's complacent attitude. But this may be unfair. If only they were more communicative.

 

I have an M9 with a seriously crunched corner. It was repaired and given 12 months warranty by Leica and has never given any trouble although it looks a bit rough (cosmetics don't bother me). To be honest it sounds to me as if the real problem is communication which is something that a lot of organisations are still poor at - despite having more communication systems than ever before, most of which are fast and reliable. I would mither them until you get a satisfactory response, for your own peace of mind. All that said, a repair which will come with a full year's warranty should cover you well and truly.

[Peter H]

I am quoting the legal position. I have an extensive background in consumer protection. You will not lose your legal rights if the camera is repaired. Leica should return it to you working fully in accordance with its original specifications which includes the ability to produce all specified image quality types. The firmware issue is a red herring and will apply to all M10 owners anyway.

 

William

 

 

I have an M9 with a seriously crunched corner. It was repaired and given 12 months warranty by Leica and has never given any trouble although it looks a bit rough (cosmetics don't bother me). To be honest it sounds to me as if the real problem is communication which is something that a lot of organisations are still poor at - despite having more communication systems than ever before, most of which are fast and reliable. I would mither them until you get a satisfactory response, for your own peace of mind. All that said, a repair which will come with a full year's warranty should cover you well and truly.

 

 

 

 

Thank you both. 

 

This is encouraging. I appreciate it.

[Frase]

My insurance company would have probably just written the camera off.

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Hallo,

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[Peter H]

My insurance company would have probably just written the camera off.

 

 

That would be the best outcome.

[pop]

... Before the accident the files were fine, using the same SD card. After it they are not usable. That is not a coincidental firmware issue....

I agree. There's no possible way for a firmware issue to spontaneously appear which would have the effect you describe. 

 

Given that the accident involved a few mechanical shocks, I'd sooner think of some broken connections on a circuit board or of a loose cable connection. Chances are that the fault will be mended anyway just by disassembling and re-assembling the camera.