Leica NJ does not have any CCD now, turnaround time might take longer

[Aguilera85]

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Well....back to the original poster, LOL, when I sent my M9-P in in January, 2016, it also took 4 months due to no sensors in stock at the time, so your wait time is not unique. Got mine back in mid-May.

 

I found out later I could have "gotten in line" by contacting Leica and keeping my camera to use, then sending it in when Leica let you know they have a sensor for your camera.

 

It would have been nice to know about that "waiting in line" option. Too late now haha

[jaapv]

When we post an absolute, such as the price, without naming a source, then the statement is fair game. When we DO name the source, then our attention turns to the source.

 

Who is the source?

.

Are you really expecting me to plaster the name of some Leica official all over the internet? If so, you will be disappointed.

[jaapv]

Cost per sensor does not explain why Leica cannot stock up (in your view, 'overstock) because we do not know the contractual details, whether prepay is necessary, whether some compensation is made by the manufacturer to accommodate damage to Leica's reputation or due to failure of competent manufacture. IOW, summary cost per sensor is unknown. Further, if Leica claims it is 1500 euro we do not know if they include their costs in the figure - do they include handling, technicians' time, accounting ...

 

Finally, why do think stocking is necessarily  overstocking?

The price mentioned to me was clearly the net cost to Leica.

[acolite]

Well, I think I got luckly. Sent my M9-P out back in March, they received it on March 9th, the ETA back then was up to 10 weeks. Called them today, they received the camera back from Germany and should be sending it out soon after one last quick check.

 

Hopefully I'll have my camera back by next week!

[almoore]

I take offense at being accused of lying, especially by some heckler.

 

I haven't - and wouldn't dream of - accusing you of lying.

 

I might take everything you say with a huge pinch of salt, but it doesn't stop me enjoying the exuberance of your continuous - if often counterproductive - efforts to spin on Leica's behalf.

[jaapv]

If you wouldn't dream of it then don't.

[almoore]

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If you wouldn't dream of it then don't.

 

I repeat, I'm not accusing you of lying. I don't doubt that you believe the information you've given, but I do doubt its accuracy. You and Ian have been told that the cost to Leica of a replacement sensor unit is 1800 euros. Ian was 'told by Leica Customer care that Leica were paying €1,800 for each sensor they were replacing', but I think it's highly unlikely that anybody in that role would know the cost. Leica is a small company, but not so small that the details of its purchasing agreements are available to all. It isn't credible that they're getting little more than a ten per cent discount over the price that I could pay for a single unit.

 

And when it comes to accusations of lying, you're not squeaky clean yourself. When I first posted here - years ago - you immediately accused me of lying when I mentioned in passing that I'd used an M8 before the official release date. You seemed to imagine that it was outlandish that a photographer with a long relationship with Leica could possibly have precedence over a dentist when it came to allocation of cameras. 

 

I find your presence and chutzpah entertaining, but you're not sitting on particularly high moral ground when it comes to scrupulous posting behaviour. 

[jaapv]

So you are accusing Leica officials of lying to their customers? That is against Forum rules, as you well know.

About the pre-release M8, like others, I got mine from Solms before the official release, so why should I doubt you? I dare you to link to that alleged post. Did you possibly beta tester'sNDA back then?

[almoore]

So you are accusing Leica officials of lying to their customers?

Nor did I accuse you of using an M8 before the official release date. In fact I got mine from Solms  before the official release, so why should I? I dare you to link to that alledged post.

 

 

I'm accusing Leica of spinning - not lying - to their customers.

 

Is there an easy way of searching back through the archive? I'd be happy to link if there is. I'm getting a search limit of 09 June 2016 on my posts. Presumably there's a way I can go back to my earliest posts?

[jaapv]

Anyway, both my Monochrom1 (second sensor old type) and M9 show corrosion. So I'm home safe .

It will take quite a while, I suppose, for the cameras to be returned. I understand Leica has pressed all available staff into service to clear the backlog of "clean and check" cameras. We will have to be prepared to cut them some slack in time, and possibly errors (hopefully not!) through inexperienced staff. This is going to be a major effort.

[Jean-Michel]

I just received my M9 back from Leica-NJ (via my dealer) it looks and feels new again. The camera was sent to Leica in mid-January, so it took over 4 months for the repair. Granted, I was getting a bit impatient at the time the work was taking, but I have an MP – and other non-Leica equipment – so I was not overly inconvenienced. I have no idea of how many M9 were/are being sent in for the sensor issue, but that number must be in addition to the normal maintenance/repair work orders. All these cameras must be serviced by the regular number of technicians, they can only do so much work in a day. I am glad that they are not rushing through the work, replacing a sensor and all the rest of the work they do on the camera is not trivial and must take quite some time to perform.

 

I purchased my M9 in 2011. My sensor developed the 'corrosion spots' a while later. Since I was not able to clean it using normal procedures, I sent it in the camera and it came back within a couple of weeks looking new and with a replaced original sensor. That was before the issue became publicly known. Then, last year, the problem arose again. I phoned Leica and asked if the camera could be put in the repair line-up with a more or less scheduled date. For some reason, I was not able to send the camera for that date and eventually had my dealer send it. 

 

I am not thrilled by Leica's announcement about the end of the free service for the sensor issue. However, given that the the M9 was replaced by the M in 2012, most M9's and variants are five or more years old. By now most would either have developed the 'corrosion' issue and now sport a new sensor, or are free from it. The cost mentioned in Leica's email is not totally out of reason given that the work includes an overhaul of the camera, you get back a like-new camera back, not too bad of a deal.

[Ko.Fe.]

.... most M9's and variants are five or more years old. By now most would either have developed the 'corrosion' issue and now sport a new sensor, or are free from it. ...

 

My M-E is 2015 made one. 

[xixi_gelly]

So you are accusing Leica officials of lying to their customers? That is against Forum rules, as you well know.

About the pre-release M8, like others, I got mine from Solms before the official release, so why should I doubt you? I dare you to link to that alleged post. Did you possibly beta tester'sNDA back then?

 

I don't want to further fan the flames in a heated thread about sensor replacement but my jaw dropped a bit at this first line -- is it really against forum rules for almoore to suggest that Leica officials lie to their customers?

 

I hope not. I love Leica. I love the company, what it stands for, its products -- which I think about and hold every day.

 

But never would I fall so deep into the cult that I'd defend Leica to the point of threatening freedom of speech on an internet forum re: a pretty innocuous off the cuff remark by a frustrated owner.

 

Come on.

[pop]

....

Come on.

So you would prefer a forum where everyone smiles benignly whenever someone randomly accuses others of lying without producing any kind of proof?

[james.liam]

I encountered similar delays with my MM; 12 weeks. Was told sensors are produced in batches and depends on when in the cycle your unit enters the queue. I don't pretend to know the specifics of how these sensors are made but do they share fabrication steps in common and then the line alternates between monochrome and color? Wondering if anyone knows.

[jaapv]

I don't want to further fan the flames in a heated thread about sensor replacement but my jaw dropped a bit at this first line -- is it really against forum rules for almoore to suggest that Leica officials lie to their customers?

[...]

 

 

 Yes, it is against the rules.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/209327-what-the-leica-forum-is-for/

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/6780-rules-in-the-leica-forum/

 

[...]What the forum is not for

This isn’t the place for those who think that Leica, Leica products and Leica customers are inadequate, deceitful or stupid.[...]

[IkarusJohn]

So, what are the facts here:

(1) only Leica knows how many CCD based cameras were produced, but we do know they started with the M9 in 2009 and continued through the Monochrom and M-E in 2015? A lot of cameras (for Leica), I'd guess. The M9 appears to have been the most successful camera for Leica since the M3.

(2) the sensors "cost" €1,500 more or less. I take this with a grain of salt as it assumes that Leica is absorbing the entire cost of the sensor issue themselves. If so, more fool them. This is an area I know something about, and I would be disappointed if Leica did not have some deal with their suppliers and designers who ultimately caused this problem.

(3) for whatever reason, the supply of sensors is exceeded by demand and repair times are stretching out.

Is this new? Actually, no. People here (a small sample of the market?) have been complaining about sensor supplies and repair times for some months - certainly before Leica's "adjustment" to its replacement policy.

So, why is any of that relevant? Sounds like way more sensors are affected than the "few", or was it "minority", Leica was talking about (Jaap's source). If this really was a small issue, with the majority of the CCD sensors unaffected, then it would have been a relatively straightforward issue for Leica to order enough sensors even in a small run. If Leica actually knew how many sensors are affected; it would have been a simple matter to order sufficient for such a small problem.

What we do know is that more sensors are coming back for replacement than Leica has sensors for. So, clearly they don't know how many cameras are affected, and the real number is far greater than Lieca thought. They will have anticipated a surge when they changed the policy - it may well be one of the reasons they did change the policy and the result is they have been caught with their pants down.

I do trust Leica (generally) but I also believe that Jaap's "source" gives him messages that are to be published on this forum - at best, they are less than candid. To date, I view the messages from this "source" with limited credibility. Conversely, my own experience of asking Leica direct questions - senior people in Customer Service and in production - is I get a straight answer. But then, I tend not to repeat them here.

You just need to look at what Leica officially said when the sensor issue first arose, and what Stefan Daniel eventually announced (and Jaap's "source"). I don't doubt that this is a pain for Leica, and it is hurting them - but they're not exactly shouding themselves in glory. When I did marketing training as a junior lawyer, I was always told to keep existing clients happy.

Leica seems to have decided that they will lose the noisy ones who aren't worth much (they'll sell their cameras to new potential Leica customers), the good ones will continue to buy and the genuinely new customers (lusting after the M10) won't know a thing about this storm in a teacup over cameras no longer in production. This was sorted with the M(240) series, so the M10 is just fine ...

Cheers
John

[jaapv]

One thing, John, nobody at Leica has ever asked me to publish anything on the forum; if they had I would have told them to do so themselves.

It is true though that I check whether I am free to publish any confidential inside information when the occasion arises.

 

I agree with you, though, that the number of sensors affected appears to be rising dramatically, after slowing down to a trickle. Expected or not? We'll never know. But it may well be that Leicas cooperation contract with the sensor manufacturer on product liability had  a deadline.

[IkarusJohn]

One thing, John, nobody at Leica has ever asked me to publish anything on the forum; if they had I would have told them to do so themselves.

It is true though that I check whether I am free to publish any confidential inside information when the occasion arises.

 

 

I don't think I suggested they have.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

This is the passage I refer to:
 

but I also believe that Jaap's "source" gives him messages that are to be published on this forum

I don't get "messages". I have friendly conversations with people. About the weather, about the family, about cameras, about their work. Nothing like the premeditation you suggest.