Leica Ends Free Sensor Replacement for M9/Monochrom Bodies

[ianman]

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So what is the reasonable life expectancy of a $7,000 camera?

 

I would say that nowadays the initial cost is unfortunately quite irrelevant. As to the life expectancy, I'm not a good judge because I still use the M9 which is now almost 8 years old, and in digital camera terms that makes it practically an antique. But I wouldn't be surprised if camera manufacturers aim at users "upgrading" every couple of years.

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[Jeff S]

How long should a Leica S lens last? More specifically, how long should one expect it to be able to auto focus? Apparently Leica is ok with 5 years.

 

Jeff

[pgk]

What we are discussing here is different. For example, an M9 falling in value slowly, then a big, rapid drop in value when the corrosion problem was found. When Leica announced the 'for life' replacement programme the M9 value increased and more people bought them. Now the value for a first-generation M9 must surely be very low.

So the problem is a perception problem? One of yo-yoing values rather than anything else. An M9 with a replaced sensor should not be affected by the fact that Leica will charge for replacement sensors should it? And one with its original sensor which has been checked and found to be ok is probably going to remain OK isn't it? As I said in an earlier post, Leica are in the position to know just how many sensors may have been affected. Perhaps most have now been replaced and what we are now discussing is valuation which as I have said before is irrelevant if you are a user. Cameras are only an investment if pristine and virtually unused or with a provenance which makes them valuable. For the rest of us they are to take photos with. Like cars they take a big value hit at first and then steadily tail off until around 10 years old. The M9 still appears to have a better resale value than most and although I wouldn't mind buying a very cheap one if one came up, I'm a bit doubtful of this happening despite all the suggestions to the contrary.

[MarkP]

A number of people have gone off on a tangent - the issue here is that Leica expects the consumer to now bear the cost of replacing a sensor which the company has admitted was of unsatisfactory quality.  

It is quite reasonable for the consumer to bear the cost of routine repairs out of warranty, including sensor failure for reasons other than corrosion, but not where the repair is for replacement of a substandard component.

 

It would be appropriate for Leica to accept responsibility for sensor corrosion for a reasonable period of time, arbitrarily say 10 years from date of manufacture (or replacement date where the replacement sensor was the original faulty component) as it seems insistent on a change of policy on this issue.

Edited May 18, 2017 by MarkP

[pgk]

A number of people have gone off on a tangent - the issue here is that Leica expects the consumer to now bear the cost of replacing a sensor which the company has admitted was of unsatisfactory quality.  

It is quite reasonable for the consumer to bear the cost of routine repairs out of warranty, including sensor failure for reasons other than corrosion, but not where the repair is for replacement of a substandard component.

 

It would be appropriate for Leica to accept responsibility for sensor corrosion for a reasonable period of time, arbitrarily say 10 years from date of manufacture (or replacement date where the replacement sensor was the original faulty component) as it seems insistent on a change of policy on this issue.

 

Whilst you make a fair point, is it not reasonable to make a charge for servicing the camera when the sensor is replaced if it is found to be defective? I ask because simply replacing a sensor without servicing the camera when it is stripped down makes little sense and servicing a camera over 5 years old (discontinued) for free when to do so is expensive is costly to the manufacturer.

 

I would suggest that Leica are in a no win situation here, but equally, I see that they can't keep an open ended commitment in place as M9 camera's continue to age. I suppose the answer to the question 'what is a 'reasonable' period to offer free replacement sensors for' is the one which we should be trying to sort out. Leica have clearly decided that this is about 5 years, or about halfway through the potential lifespan (or value life) of the last M9s it produced. If this isn't reasonable what do people think is, because clearly they can't offer free sensor replacement for ever?

Edited May 18, 2017 by pgk

[jaapv]

How long should a Leica S lens last? More specifically, how long should one expect it to be able to auto focus? Apparently Leica is ok with 5 years.

 

Jeff

Is it not likely that by then all old gears will have either broken down or been replaced?

[silverchrome]

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Such a charge is reasonable only if the work is in addition to the sensor change and not incidental to it.

 

 

Sensor replacement appears to be a major job requiring the camera to be fully stripped down, and I would have thought that during this work, practically every tolerance in the camera would be somehow affected.

 

That is why I don't really buy the arguments that the camera needs a service, I. E. additional work to the camera to bring it back to spec; rangefinder and shutter aside, how many mechanical components are there in a digit M?

 

Also, even after 5 years, and assuming that there are plenty of mechanical components inside a digital M, how many of these cameras are likely to have been used so heavily as to justify this "service"?

Whilst you make a fair point, is it not reasonable to make a charge for servicing the camera when the sensor is replaced if it is found to be defective? I ask because simply replacing a sensor without servicing the camera when it is stripped down makes little sense and servicing a camera over 5 years old (discontinued) for free when to do so is expensive is costly to the manufacturer.

 

I would suggest that Leica are in a no win situation here, but equally, I see that they can't keep an open ended commitment in place as M9 camera's continue to age. I suppose the answer to the question 'what is a 'reasonable' period to offer free replacement sensors for' is the one which we should be trying to sort out. Leica have clearly decided that this is about 5 years, or about halfway through the potential lifespan (or value life) of the last M9s it produced. If this isn't reasonable what do people think is, because clearly they can't offer free sensor replacement for ever?

Such a charge is reasonable only if the work is in addition to the sensor change and not incidental to it.

 

 

Sensor replacement appears to be a major job requiring the camera to be fully stripped down, and I would have thought that during this work practically every tolerance in the camera would be somehow affected.

 

That is why I don't really buy the arguments that the camera needs a service; rangefinder and shutter aside, how many mechanical components are there in a digit M?

 

Also, even after 5 years, and assuming that there are plenty of mechanical components inside a digital M, how many of these cameras are likely to have been used so heavily as to justify this "service"?

Edited May 18, 2017 by silverchrome

[jaapv]

In general many members here are not light users.

[Ecar]

The way I see it, Leica has been trying to get away with it on the cheap by not issuing a recall for all cameras potentially affected from the outset (as happens in other industries when manufacturing defects are identified - and as Leica itself did in the case of the M240 strap lugs issue).

 

Now, I appreciate that such a recall may have brought the company to its knees financially, but at the very least I'd have expected them to honour their initial commitment to replace the faulty sensors as and when required. They have the numbers, and they can build inventory over time to mitigate the financial impact. Particularly so if only a relatively small portion of all sensors suffer from corrosion.

 

If, in addition to sensor corrosion, other problems are identified upon inspection, then it is up to the customer to decide whether to proceed (and pay for the additional repairs) or not. However, if I understand correctly, the flawed rationale now being used to justify the end of the sensor replacement programme goes like "some of the cameras that we receive for sensor replacement require additional work, which we are not charging to these customers; therefore, we will now charge all customers for the sensor replacement work". A bit of a shortcut, perhaps, but plainly unacceptable IMO.

 

As I indicated earlier, had this happened a few days earlier, I would not have taken delivery of my M10. But, at the very least, I was able to cancel the purchase of two new lenses that were reserved for me (btw, the dealer, who lost a fairly substantial sale and whose name I won't mention here, is mad at Leica and fully understands my position).

[jaapv]

Excuse me for asking, but what do (legitimate) concerns with a 2009 model camera have to do with a present-day body and lenses? It sounds a bit counter-productive.

As for a general recall, at 1300 Euro net for the sensor alone, and let's guess 90.000 cameras sold, it would have come at an unbearable price, with, in the end, nobody's sensor replaced as the company would have collapsed.

[pgk]

..... at the very least I'd have expected them to honour their initial commitment to replace the faulty sensors as and when required.

 

but for how long? 5 years, 10 years, 25 year, 100 years? There must be a point at which a commitment ends. The real question is how long before it does so?

 

I have:

 

1994 Kodak DCS camera (£8k new) - worthless, no parts, scrap or curio value only.

 

2004 Kodak DCS Pro N (£2k new) - needs full service but not possible - 13 years old - scrap or curio value only (though it sort of works when it feels like it and recognises the battery.

 

I sold my Canon EOS1DS MkI & MkII cameras (£5.5k new) - the MkII was discontinued in 2007 and is no longer supported.

 

All of these were expensive cameras and the latest was discontinued 10 years ago and repair is subject to parts availability now, of which there are few.

 

Does this help?

Edited May 18, 2017 by pgk

[silverchrome]

In general many members here are not light users.

But Leica is applying this charge to everybody. Not just heavy users.

[Ecar]

In general many members here are not light users.

 

Perhaps - I don't have the numbers, nor do you. But I wouldn't be so sure.

[Ko.Fe.]

That doesn't really answer the question, as neither have support, do they?

 

Did you asked about how long camera will lasts itself or support?

 

Epson/Cosina stopped manufacturing of their digital rangefinder camera R-D1xG in 2014, this model is supported until 2021. 

[Ecar]

Excuse me for asking, but what do (legitimate) concerns with a 2009 model camera have to do with a present-day body and lenses? It sounds a bit counter-productive.

As for a general recall, at 1300 Euro net for the sensor alone, and let's guess 90.000 cameras sold, it would have come at an unbearable price, with, in the end, nobody's sensor replaced as the company would have collapsed.

 

 

Trust. It has to do with trust. Plain and simple. I like to do business with people / companies I trust. Call me old-fashioned if you like.

 

As I indicated, I appreciate that a general recall may have brought the company to its knees. What is unclear in my previous post?

[Ecar]

but for how long? 5 years, 10 years, 25 year, 100 years? There must be a point at which a commitment ends. The real question is how long before it does so?

 

I have:

 

1994 Kodak DCS camera (£8k new) - worthless, no parts, scrap or curio value only.

 

2004 Kodak DCS Pro N (£2k new) - needs full service but not possible - 13 years old - scrap or curio value only (though it sort of works when it feels like it and recognises the battery.

 

I sold my Canon EOS1DS MkI & MkII cameras (£5.5k new) - the MkII was discontinued in 2007 and is no longer supported.

 

All of these were expensive cameras and the latest was discontinued 10 years ago and repair is subject to parts availability now, of which there are few.

 

Does this help?

 

They made a commitment, not their customers. To the best of my recollection, it was open-ended in terms of timeframe.

I understand they can't store parts forever, but that's not the issue here.

Leica is not telling us that they can't replace sensors anymore due to lack of sensor supplies.

They are just saying that they won't do it for free anymore.

 

Does this clarify my point?

[pico]

For peace-of-mind I would pay to have my M9s sensors replaced within a reasonable wait-time, perhaps four weeks including shipping times.

[Ecar]

Good. That's exactly what Leica wants to hear... Except that they probably won't guarantee you the turnaround time anyway.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ko.Fe.]

In general many members here are not light users.

 

Excuse me, I'm new here. What is "not light user" here? And users of what?

 

I would take my M4-2 anywhere any time since I purchased it. Major trips and daily trips. With temperatures varied between +40C and - 28C. I would walk with it for hours and take as many shots as I want, feel to take. I would jump with it on me into canoe at the Ontario lake and I was skating with it under snowfall at Rideau Canal.

Due to this it needs repair and service, where it is now waiting for parts. It will costs, but I don't have to send it to Leica NJ, but bring it to local independent technician.

 

Here is no way I'll use my M-E or even M8 same way. Just pictures at home and some local events and only if weather is mild.  

I'm new to this forum and I don't see many users, pictures with digital Leica cameras used as I'm using my M4-2. Just few, not many. Something like ski slopes pictures. 

 

Or is the "not light user" here is someone who is actually taking camera in hands instead of keeping it as shelf queen and taking pictures regularly? 

[pedaes]

"I don't see many users, pictures with digital Leica cameras used as I'm using my M4-2. Just few, not many. Something like ski slopes pictures."

 

Look harder. Seek and ye shall find.

Edited May 18, 2017 by pedaes