M246 Monochrom impressions after 1 month

[Jeff S]

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Yes, prints both from digital and before in the darkroom. With PP I can take my time. With shooting I cannot as I have a family and like to move fast. Again, I am not Ansel Adams with a wooden tripod and all day to wait for the light to come just right.

 

The car crash scene may not be the best compositionally. I think you miss the point. The point is about the highlights of the picture not working, washed out or as I would call it, blah.

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I didn't miss your point. And proper exposure shouldn't take long after learning to judge light.... the camera is incidental ( no pun intended). Once again, it's up to the user. Sorry.

 

Jeff

[russell]

The M246 has been too well received by too many really good photographers, and any number of superb images have been made with it, for it to have the inherent problem(s) that a tiny few have attributed to it...

 

I've read Thorsten's exposure page.  I don't get it in the sense that he's saying what I'm doing, i.e. get the skin tones right.  Also I use his technique in using the center weighted meter to pick a representative exposure.  With film I'd go for a somewhat darker area.  Recently with the M246 I've gone for more lighter areas -- but still get sizeable clipped highlight areas.  So I wouldn't know what else to take away from that article that I haven't already.

 

Looks like I'm part of the the tiny few.

I wonder how tiny are the tiny few.  Isn't this subject to survivor bias? i.e. those that don't want clipped highlights have stuck with film and/or stick with the more forgiving colour sensors.  There's just something that doesn't sit well with me about having to move exposure materially away from skin tone to force the camera to capture a usable range in post processing.  It goes against what I've learned and my practice all these years.   Maybe I have to drink the new koolaid.

 

Technically what's holding back sensor producers from making sensors that deal better with highlights?  Bandwidth to take it out to 16 bit? Or is it a larger step to 24 or 32 needed?  Or is it that the sensors pick it up, but the rest of the internal hardware/software cripples the information to get a realistic buffer speed and file sizes?

[Jeff S]

Choose the tool(s) that best suit your style and preferences. There are many quality choices these days, Leica and otherwise. But using the MM will, if nothing else, hone your exposure skills. A color M will be a bit more forgiving, with more flexibility in PP.

 

Jeff

Edited April 18, 2017 by Jeff S

[russell]

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I didn't miss your point. And proper exposure shouldn't take long after learning to judge light.... the camera is incidental ( no pun intended). Once again, it's up to the user. Sorry.

 

Jeff

Sorry, Jeff, but I want to stick to the car crash photo.  That was the point I felt you missed.  I don't care that it's not a winning shot or ever would be one, nor do I care about Thorsten as an artist.  I'm rather interested in Thorsten's observation that the M246 doesn't handle highlights well.  In this case, even those that are not clipped.  It's one example, but there are others on his site that are also blah due to highlights.  He concludes that the M246 works very well in a range of situations -- those that have well behaved highlights.  And I'm not mentioning him to put forth a "my dad is better than your dad" or "my expert is better than you" argument, it's just that I think he articulated what I've experienced on the M246 better than I could have.  I would copy/paste it, but I don't want copyright problems.

 

Proper exposure shouldn't take long?  Sorry, Jeff, but I've been making proper exposure for decades.  I haven't ever had this as a problem.  If it's down to the specific vs general exposure then the specific will always take longer as I see it -- even if fractionally so.  Why?  The method of taking exposure from a lighter portion of the scene using the classic mode (at least on the shots I've done so far, maybe my sample is too small to conclude), the multi-field method, and the classic mode all leads to highlights clipped!  To do things more specific is akin to spot metering which I never found all that quick as you have to hunt around quite a bit to find the ranges and relatively bright spots.  Even if it's quick, I don't see how it could be quicker than the shooting style I've used until now.

 

At the heart of this is, I'm not sure I want to change how I've been making exposures for decades. Taking the general reading from a relatively broad, brighter area I could do and will practice.

 

In short, I need to give it more time and practice.  If it doesn't come around, then I'll sell it for a camera that better fits my shooting style.

[russell]

Choose the tool(s) that best suit your style and preferences. There are many quality choices these days, Leica and otherwise. But using the MM will, if nothing else, hone your exposure skills. A color M will be a bit more forgiving, with more flexibility in PP.

 

Jeff

Yes, that's what I'm saying, the M246 might not be for someone like me -- it's too demanding.  On the surface it would be a good fit as I shot the M3 with black and white, but it's turning out to be best suited for slide shooters who want black and white.  But I'll give it a go for awhile yet.

[EoinC]

Why not go and do as Mr Fjeld demonstrated, try pulling the shadows back up in whatever editing software you are using, and come back to discuss what you found?

[Guest]

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Technically what's holding back sensor producers from making sensors that deal better with highlights?  Bandwidth to take it out to 16 bit? Or is it a larger step to 24 or 32 needed?  Or is it that the sensors pick it up, but the rest of the internal hardware/software cripples the information to get a realistic buffer speed and file sizes?

 

 

 

Depends on the sensor ... its pixel size pitch and design ... the A7R II .... Sony 50 MP in the X1D and GFX-50S ... Nikon D810 have a dynamic range that is huge ... supposedly the RED Weapon uses a sensor that while small in size is able to handle 15+ stops of DR.

 

The monochrom is a bit more limited but has so little noise in the shadow that you can expose to protect the highlights and then pull up the exposure in post.

 

May I say that the very best family portrait I have EVER done was with the MM1 ... shot it along with a Canon 5D Mk II and the monochrom trounced the Canon ... and would have bettered any 35mm size sensor camera.

 

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So you can move to a color M but the subtle elements that the monochrom excels in depicting will be lost.

 

Bob

[Jeff S]

I really did not miss your point on the car crash pic, even re- reading Thorsten's entire article. I just don't buy the notion that the M246 can't be part of a total workflow that produces beautiful prints, throughout the tonal range.

 

But I certainly would never base my opinion on someone else's experience, and even less based on screen shots. I judge based on my own prints, which always require careful PP. And if I didn't get along with the camera, I'd make another choice. Simple.

 

Jeff

[Guest]

Yes, that's what I'm saying, the M246 might not be for someone like me -- it's too demanding.  On the surface it would be a good fit as I shot the M3 with black and white, but it's turning out to be best suited for slide shooters who want black and white.  But I'll give it a go for awhile yet.

 

 

Not too demanding ... a little different and may be worth the effort to discover its inherent strengths and beauty.

 

JMHO ....

 

But whatever Leica you end up with ... ride it like you stole it .... because little else will get you so close to those evanescent moments of beauty that make life worth all the struggle.

 

Bob

Edited April 18, 2017 by docmoore

[Joshua Lowe]

I found that the wider the lens the more likely I was to have issues with blown highlights.  Probably because I used the camera in an urban environment and the contrast between buildings and the sky could be very harsh.  

[250swb]

 

Proper exposure shouldn't take long?  Sorry, Jeff, but I've been making proper exposure for decades.  I haven't ever had this as a problem.  

 

What I read in your explanations is that you have been making the 'same' exposure for decades, which isn't quite the same as the correct exposure, at least for most creative photographers.

 

For dedicated film users correct exposure has been something that is customised for the situation depending on light, visualisation, film, developer and how it will be printed. There is no one means to get a correct exposure, just the path that the photographer has in his head from pressing the shutter button to how he imagines the finished image will look, and this is for digital photography as much as film. So to claim making a general reading is the right way and anything else is wrong and too much work is pretty much a 'dog in the manger' attitude to photography.

 

Anything but the most basic point-n-shoot camera has some form of  '+' and '-' option for exposure and for good reason, the camera doesn't know what you want from a scene. And to want something you need to have an opinion about it, and having an opinion is the key to good exposure in that you know where your workflow will take you. You only need to look at the lengths people will go to in wanting to create universally bland photographs with bland cameras that can record all the tones perfectly from 0 to 255 to understand why just a bit of work is a good thing and separates a photographer from somebody that just owns a camera.

[Runkel]

I had a new M246 that had a strange defect out of the box that resulted in overexposure in some circumstances.  Since I had been expecting challenges with highlights and was mostly shooting in A mode with auto ISO, it took me a week or more of normal shooting to suspect that something was wrong with the camera.  The problem was apparent when I did test shots of the same bright scene (with a fixed ISO) at manually-set shutter/aperture combinations that should have produced identical exposures, but did not.  Leica replaced my camera and I never learned what had been wrong with it.  My theory was that shutter speed settings of 1/1000 and above all were producing the same actual shutter speed, in the neighborhood of 1/1000.

 

I have never heard of anyone else encountering this issue, nor had my dealer, Tony Rose at PopFlash.

 

With my replacement camera, I do not have notable problems with exposure.

 

Matt

[Guest jvansmit]

I also found the M246 different to the MM1 in the way it handled highlights. I later decided not to bother with it at all on high contrast days in city streets, i.e. when taking photos quickly on very sunny days when buildings cast deep shadows, and more recently have happily gone back to the MM1 again.

 

The issue for me was when taking quick shots with a wide angle (24mm) when half the scene was in bright sunlight, and half in shadow. I used to keep up to -1EV dialed in but sometimes that wasn't enough, and in fast moving situations we don't always have time to adjust compensation on the fly. I find the MM1 ever so slightly more forgiving though it still requires care in high contrast situation with wide angle lenses especially when shooting at high ISO.

 

There was some discussion on Rangefinder forum (link below) about using 2x Heliopan yellow filters to modify the sensor behavior but I didn't notice any difference.

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2566560&postcount=3

[sblutter]

In digital, spot meter & capture for highlights so they get blown out, bring up the bottom end in photoshop or LR

 

Russell, I suggest you do lots and lots of test shots to establish a method that gives you the results you want

 

I would never expect perfection from a raw capture

[klytz]

After having read all these comments I fell somewhat soothed, since I have been trying to understand that 246 sensor for more than 3 months now. I get some good pictures but unfortunately more bad due to false exposure. I feel I am back at the end of the last century where I started making slides with an M6TTL. That wasn't easy either, but I learned it and so I shall with this stubborn camera. But why don't I ever have problems with exposure when I grab my Nikon D4? (Okay, I know it has a color sensor )

 

Klaus 

[klytz]

I've been for a walk in the forrest this afternoon with my family and here are 2 pictures from my shooting. It is the first time that I try to upload something on the site, so I am rather uncertain on how it will work out. None of them has been processed in any way afterwards apart from the latter one being a crop. It was an attempt to make something ethereal in BW. 

 

The first picture has definitely burnt out in the highlights, but I don't think that you can find a film, that would do that better.

They are both shot with my M246 and the Summilux 1,4. Orange filter

First picture 1/45 sec. f / 16 ISO 500

Second picture (crop) 1/45 sec. f / 9,5 ISO 800

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Edited October 15, 2017 by klytz

[Genn]

After having read all these comments I fell somewhat soothed, since I have been trying to understand that 246 sensor for more than 3 months now. I get some good pictures but unfortunately more bad due to false exposure.

 

Try to start image post processing in Lightroom. Basically you need to adjust Exposure, highlights and shadows parameters of DNG file. This is like a printing on a paper in red light room.

 

Once you get used to those adjustments you can start to make underexposed images. It is possible to underexpose intentionally for about 2 EV and then to restore midrange tonality with Lr. Intentional under exposure with post processing adjustments of highlights, shadows and exposure parameters will help to emulate S curve of traditional negative film.

[jaapv]

Better to use the curve tool right away. After adjusting exposure of course.

[jaapv]

 

Technically what's holding back sensor producers from making sensors that deal better with highlights?  Bandwidth to take it out to 16 bit? Or is it a larger step to 24 or 32 needed?  Or is it that the sensors pick it up, but the rest of the internal hardware/software cripples the information to get a realistic buffer speed and file sizes?

Very simple. When a sensel (pixel) records 100% there is no room for more. A full glass cannot contain more. Increasing the exposure range (DR is a misnomer) only increases the size of the glass.

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Hallo,

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[proenca]

@russel: I can confirm your experience with the M246. That was also the reason I sold the monochrom and got the M-P instead. In my opinion this is a "bad weather conditions camera" and was as such too pricey for me..

 

interesting. what is a bad weather condition ?