fefe Posted June 21, 2007 Share #21 Posted June 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have had the same problem on my M8 since I recieved it. Members of this forum told me that it was probably shutter oil and it indeed was. Following their advices and because I didn't want to send it back, I baught swabs, blowers etc... and convinced myself I could do it myself without damaging the sensor. I can tell you that I had an adrenalin rush the first time I clicked on sensor cleaning (I never cleaned a sensor before). So it works, but small spots keep appearing but they get smaller and smaller with time (hopefully), now they are only visible at really small appertures that I just try to not use. I take a test shot of bright blue sky at f16 once in a while to see the status of the sensor and if I see too many spots I clean it. At first the spots were pretty large and attempt to blow air or use a brush led to just spreading the oil around. Wett+dry swabs just do it, and now after a few 100 shots, spots are really tiny... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Hi fefe, Take a look here Recurrent spots on M8 sensor. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Speenth Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share #22 Posted June 21, 2007 I have had the same problem on my M8 since I recieved it. Members of this forum told me that it was probably shutter oil and it indeed was. Following their advices and because I didn't want to send it back, I baught swabs, blowers etc... and convinced myself I could do it myself without damaging the sensor. I can tell you that I had an adrenalin rush the first time I clicked on sensor cleaning (I never cleaned a sensor before). So it works, but small spots keep appearing but they get smaller and smaller with time (hopefully), now they are only visible at really small appertures that I just try to not use. I take a test shot of bright blue sky at f16 once in a while to see the status of the sensor and if I see too many spots I clean it. At first the spots were pretty large and attempt to blow air or use a brush led to just spreading the oil around. Wett+dry swabs just do it, and now after a few 100 shots, spots are really tiny... Thanks Fefe, another encouraging comment. My love (lust) for Leica may yet be restored - time will tell... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 21, 2007 Share #23 Posted June 21, 2007 Its the same issue really - these spots appear on every image, just as tramlines would with conventional photography. My issue here is that the M8 is a serious camera and its owner should expect seriously good results technically - to buy it for any other reason would be an extravagance or conceit. If this problem cannot be solved I must conclude that the camera works less well than a poor quality cheapy - thus it is not fit for purpose. I await with interest its return from Solms - I'll keep everybody posted on the outcome and its ongoing performance (or demise) .... Yes - but you can save the image by cloning them quickly. What I saw of yours on RFF is about five minutes work. I've once spent a whole evenig cloning a scanned slide that was tramlined and after that used by some clodhopper in the lab to clear dandruff of his comb. At least with a digital camera you can a. notice whilst you shoot if you chimp for dust from time to time b. be certain oil spots will appear less and less as you use the camera c. get it spotlessly clean again with a one minute swab d. get rid of in postprocessing easily. It is not a technical problem, it is a fact of digital lie. The downside about a digital rangefinder as opposed to a DSLR is that the sensor gets dusty a bit more easily, as it is not covered by a mirror and closer to the camera mouth, the upside is that it is easier to get to to clean for exactly the same reasons. Dust hygiene, by switching the camera off when changing lenses, keeping the camera facing down when open, not leaving the lens off for longer than necessary, moving to a less dusty spot for changing lenses and when in unavoidably dusty circumstances, giving the camera a quick blow-around every evening are helpful. When really in trouble, like in windy desert and savanna-like places, I take my camera into the shower stall in the evening to blow out the dust. Oh- and you will likely have to clean the sensor when it returns from Solms.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venkman Posted June 21, 2007 Share #24 Posted June 21, 2007 [...]- cleaning prevents them for only moments. After a few images the sensor is covered once more (I favour the shutter oil-splashing theory, because the spots are often smears, blobs and wide areas of colour variance and they resist all attempts to clean the sensor using an air brush). This sounds very "dirty" - I had spots (and still have them), but it's nothing that I worry about. I noticed, as so many here mentioned, that it got better after a couple of hundred shots. But clearly not as bad as I take it is from your description. I never experienced something that wasn't fixed in PS within 2 minutes (and which is often spots on my lenses as well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 21, 2007 Share #25 Posted June 21, 2007 Hi' Rex. I understand your reaction, but in my case these spots are persistent - cleaning prevents them for only moments. After a few images the sensor is covered once more (I favour the shutter oil-splashing theory, because the spots are often smears, blobs and wide areas of colour variance and they resist all attempts to clean the sensor using an air brush). If this problem cannot be resolved why would I continue to use the M8 as a serious tool? Ok lets get something straight. There is NO digital camera with removable lenses, DSLR or RF, that does not get dust, spots, smears on the sensor. Thinking that all you need to clean the sensor is a air blower is naive. Yes some times that is all you need but most of the time you will need to wet clean the sensor. Just why do you think there are numerous companies selling cleaning solutions, swaps, swipes, pads and numerous website discribing how to use them. I clean the sensors on all my digital cameras on a regular basis. Whether they are covered with dust or not. The spots are NOT persistent. The shop you took it to got it clean and you took some pictures with it without any spots on it. OK they returned, so clean it. I don't know of anyone that take digital photography seriously, whether Pro or amateur, that doesn't clean their sensor themselves. Just like I don't know of any serious film photographer that doesn't delevope some if not all his own film. Cleaning the sensor is a fact of life with digital. I find your reaction totally irrational. It everyone reacted like that no one would own a digital camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share #26 Posted June 21, 2007 Ok lets get something straight. There is NO digital camera with removable lenses, DSLR or RF, that does not get dust, spots, smears on the sensor. Thinking that all you need to clean the sensor is a air blower is naive. Yes some times that is all you need but most of the time you will need to wet clean the sensor. Just why do you think there are numerous companies selling cleaning solutions, swaps, swipes, pads and numerous website discribing how to use them. I clean the sensors on all my digital cameras on a regular basis. Whether they are covered with dust or not. The spots are NOT persistent. The shop you took it to got it clean and you took some pictures with it without any spots on it. OK they returned, so clean it. I don't know of anyone that take digital photography seriously, whether Pro or amateur, that doesn't clean their sensor themselves. Just like I don't know of any serious film photographer that doesn't delevope some if not all his own film. Cleaning the sensor is a fact of life with digital. I find your reaction totally irrational. It everyone reacted like that no one would own a digital camera. Hi Ed, I may have given the wrong impression. I am not a newbie to photography (I've been in the medical film and photography business since 1971) and I'm not new to digital, including DSLR. I know that dust artefacts are a fact of life, film or digital and I know how to remove them. The issue here is the extent of the problem - my Nikon is just fine, ditto a colleague's Canon. They get dusty sensors now and then and a go with a brush or paddle gets them clean. With my new M8, the problem is so serious the images are not realistically recoverable unless I'm prepared to spend too long spotting them out (an activity which is neither commercially viable, nor mentally sustainable)! Some respondents have reassured me that oil spotting (if that's what it is), though endemic in M8s, diminishes with time. I hope that proves to be the case, because my argument is that a camera such as the M8 is of no use if it cannot be relied upon to produce superlative images technically. It has so far failed to meet spec'. Here is a link to an image (Hapsburg Palace) taken just two hours after my local Leica shop cleaned the sensor to perfection. In the intervening period the lens had not been removed from the camera body (download by clicking on the 'All Sizes' icon and zoom in to the sky areas around the cupola): Hapsburg Palace, Vienna on Flickr - Photo Sharing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted June 21, 2007 Share #27 Posted June 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Stephen, That's pretty nasty looking, it seems that your camera received a little too much lubrication. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 21, 2007 Share #28 Posted June 21, 2007 Just to reassure you that my original M8 had this same problem, only not as bad, and within 400-1000 shots and repeated it cleared up. My 2 newer unit have the same thing. I cleaned the sensor on the black one just last week and this morning I did a test and there was spots. As far as Nikon I sent my D200 back to Nikon for a AF adjustment and they said they cleaned the sensor. What was on the sensor when I got it back was what looked like dried water droplet. Took me 4-6 WET cleanings to remove them. That was the last time I will let some else clean the sensors on my cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 21, 2007 Share #29 Posted June 21, 2007 I too had a very spotty sensor to begin with which needed swabbing every 2 weeks or so, which I hate doing. Dust removal with various implements just did not do the trick. Again like others, spots seem to have gone now and I just get the usual dust. Mind you my sister has turned up at my house in France today with a Nikon D200 that looks as if someone had been gardening with the sensor. "When did you last clean it I ask" - blank look in return. I am quite worried about doing it since it has recently spent two weeks in Namibia and I am sure a lot of the dirt will be razor sharp sand dust. I would really like a box of the Dust Aid stikkies to do it. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share #30 Posted June 21, 2007 The latest posts from Larry, Ed (Shootist) and Wilson have me reassured. This is clearly a case of too much oil on the shutter mechanism. Dust I can cope with, but a constant deluge of BP's finest is another matter. As soon as I get the camera back from Leica I'll be firing off the shutter till its hot and until that excess oil has showered itself dry! In between I'll be dabbing, swabbing, stroking, caressing and generally being seriously intimate with my Leica's lovely sensor until it gives in and goes all clean once and for all (nice, clean cooperative dust particles excepted). The moral of this story: New M8's appear to be oil-spotting prone, some more than others. Be patient, it goes away (or so I am told by so many of you helpful and informative people). If it doesn't ..... I'll be back ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 21, 2007 Share #31 Posted June 21, 2007 I have just spotted that a French supplier (Miss Numerique) is now carrying Dust-Aid stikkies and they are now approved for M8's, so I have ordered some. I am hoping to go via Namibia en route to getting my knee replaced in South Africa later this year and I think these will be excellent for removing dust without moving the sand dust across the sensor with a brush, risking scratching it. I am contemplating getting an Arctic Butterfly 724 as well but going to have a go of my brother's one first to see how I get on with it. At the moment I just use a very soft sable hair brush and a Giotto rocket blower for dust, as against spots, for which I think there is no alterntive to wet swabs. It always gives me 'the willies' poking about inside the fragile shutter blades with a hard bit of plastic complete with a swab on the end soaked in alcohol - ughhhh! Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRabbit Posted June 21, 2007 Share #32 Posted June 21, 2007 Has anyone use SensorKlear for cleaning their M8? I had used it for my 5D and it was the ONLY thing that consistently got rid of dust and smudges... though I'm not sure how it would do with oil. The Dust-Aid thing scares me... especially after the post I read here last night! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted June 21, 2007 Share #33 Posted June 21, 2007 May I request/suggest a multi-product review by one or more of the more knowledgeable LUF posters on the subject of sensor cleaners? I, for one, had not appreciated the scale of this problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 21, 2007 Share #34 Posted June 21, 2007 Has anyone use SensorKlear for cleaning their M8? I had used it for my 5D and it was the ONLY thing that consistently got rid of dust and smudges... though I'm not sure how it would do with oil. The Dust-Aid thing scares me... especially after the post I read here last night! If what you are talking about is Sensor Klear like the one at Amazon, Amazon.com: Lenspen Sensor Klear, Flexible / Retractable Cleaning Compound Pen for CCD Sensors: Electronics , That scares me even more the the dust aids. Personally I would never touch my sensor in any camera with something that was dry. Even with the verious sensor brushes on the market they tell you to NEVER touch the sensor with it. I use PEC-Pads on a sensor swab and Eclipse E2 for the M8 and standard Eclipse for the D200. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 21, 2007 Share #35 Posted June 21, 2007 May I request/suggest a multi-product review by one or more of the more knowledgeable LUF posters on the subject of sensor cleaners? I, for one, had not appreciated the scale of this problem. You will get just as many opinion as if you asked which car is better. Some like the arctic butterfly???, others use just air (that has never worked for me) and then others, like me, prefer to do wet cleaning after I blow off the sensor area with a rocket blower. Which is better? the one that works for you to get the snsor clean. I wouldn't even think of touching the sensor with one of those sticky products or using any type of brush, even though I have a sensor bush I have never used it on any sensor. A new, clean, untouched on the side that is going to be in contact with the sensor PEC Pad and about 4 drops of E2. I have even put a drop or 2 on the sensor directly with my Nikon D200 to get the crud off that Nikon service left on the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdos2 Posted June 21, 2007 Share #36 Posted June 21, 2007 I took a "test shot" this morning to check focus on my M8- I'm a tad suspicious that the sensor/flange distance isn't quite right... Wide open 28mm Ultron, and the sky had a HUGE BLOB in it. Never seen THAT before, so I popped open the shutter. Lo, and behold! There was a chunk of foam-like material on the sensor. I didn't even have to poke at it: it fell of with a bop against the hand, and a puff of air. Happens. Glass gets dirty, even in holders. Ask anyone who makes collodion negatives. It's a pain, but it happens. Get used to cleaning things carefully. Remember that when you clean the sensor, you are cleaning glass- the front end of the IR filter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share #37 Posted June 21, 2007 May I request/suggest a multi-product review by one or more of the more knowledgeable LUF posters on the subject of sensor cleaners? I, for one, had not appreciated the scale of this problem. A very good idea, but it would need to be performed in a stringently objective manner or (as another poster says) there will be as many opinions as products. I'm very confused by the range of products for sensor screening and concerned by all the horror stories I read on the Web regarding the use of these multifarious liguids, stickies, paddles, blowers and brushes. If someone is prepared to have a go at this I think a lot of us will be eternally grateful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 21, 2007 Share #38 Posted June 21, 2007 Here you go. this link is to Copperhill Images sensor cleaning Tutorial Introduction. The links to the rest of the articles are in the upper righthand side of the page. Copper Hill Images - CCD/CMOS Cleaning Tutorial - Introduction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 22, 2007 Share #39 Posted June 22, 2007 For me Eclipse and the swabs has worked every-time to leave a nice clean and clear sensor. I have the Arctic Butterfly and I view it as a waste of $80+ and their cleaning fluid leaves streaks and is more costly. That's my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speenth Posted June 22, 2007 Author Share #40 Posted June 22, 2007 Here you go. this link is to Copperhill Images sensor cleaning Tutorial Introduction. The links to the rest of the articles are in the upper righthand side of the page.Copper Hill Images - CCD/CMOS Cleaning Tutorial - Introduction Ed, why have you kept this to yourself until now!?! Going to Copperhill should be a condition of membership of this site, it is simply so fundamentally useful! Thanks - it is the best tip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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