chris_tribble Posted February 21, 2017 Share #241 Posted February 21, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) But they did a silly thing too. they put the ISO control on the same level as the exposure controls ( Aperture-shutterspeed) although it is an internal processing control. And yes, they did not please me. I am reverting to my M9/MM1 for digital RF shooting, M6 and M3 and Barnacks for film and moving out of the Leica platform for everything else. The M240 and R lenses will be on the block after one last outing in a couple of months and I'll reduce the M lens collection too. The DMR, still doubting, but maybe it will move on too... Dear Jaap - I find it sad that you're moving away from the Leica platform after all these years. I can understand why you would no longer use long R lenses on either the M240 or the SL - In my experience it's not a good experience with either of these bodies. With the M240 the EVF never hacked it. With the SL, the lack of IS and AF make using long lenses a pain in the a*** (especially with the EVF where magnified focusing can get so shaky). What I can't understand is why you've taken so strongly against the M10. I've now been using it for several weeks and I'm blown away by how nice it is to use - and with the latest firmware - how good the EVF is. Don't like the ISO dial? Sorry - my experience is that it's intuitive and practical in use. No video? Hmm... I would have been happy to have it for occasional use but I'm not grieving the lack of it either, and the compensatory pleasures of the slim body, great menu system, outstanding image quality and overall satisfaction in use make up for this. Why not keep the Ms for 21 through to 90 and get an Olympus with pro prime or zoom lenses for a fraction of the price (and weight) of the SL or a full frame DSLR set up? The OM-D EM-1 Mk II is an outstanding camera by all reports (talk to Jono about this) and will happily go on safari with you... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Hi chris_tribble, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted February 21, 2017 Share #242 Posted February 21, 2017 Jaap, you've always been an enthusiast for the M(240). Why does the release of the M10 diminish that enthusiasm? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 21, 2017 Share #243 Posted February 21, 2017 I have no real objection to the ISO dial per se, my issue is with the theoretical difference to exposure and shutter speed. Purism reigns in Leica Land, after all. With digital, I'm not sure this "theoretical difference" holds true. All three parameters affect the exposure in different ways. Aperture limits how much light hits the sensor. Shutter speed limits how long that light hits the sensor. And ISO limits the sensitivity of the sensor to the light that hits it. You can leave any two of those parameters the same and change the third and get a resulting change in the exposure. Thus, they are equal from a practical use standpoint. With film, we set the ISO for the whole roll and develop accordingly. So quick ISO changes were unnecessary. But with digital, we can change the ISO at any time for any frame to take into account changing lighting conditions. We can shoot indoors one minute and in bright sunlight the next, and quickly adjust our sensor sensitivity to match the conditions. These days, ISO really is just another variable to adjust, on the same level as the aperture and shutter speed. Hence, it makes perfect sense to have an ISO dial on the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 21, 2017 Share #244 Posted February 21, 2017 Jaap, you've always been an enthusiast for the M(240). Why does the release of the M10 diminish that enthusiasm? Because it takes the M series into a direction that I do not want to take (just me, i is a marvelous camera just the same). It forced me to choose: follow Leica or go a different way. I chose the latter, which means adjusting my priorities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 21, 2017 Share #245 Posted February 21, 2017 Because it takes the M series into a direction that I do not want to take (just me, i is a marvelous camera just the same). It forced me to choose: follow Leica or go a different way. I chose the latter, which means adjusting my priorities. I understand that, but my question was more prosaic - why not continue to use the M(240)? Philosophically, the M(240) was, for me, a muddled camera in a way that the M Edition 60 was not. Jeff S challenged me on what he viewed as an inconsistency (I'm paraphrasing) - the M Edition 60 was, inside, the same as the M-P, but with different firmware and a beautiful stainless steel casing and fabulous 35 Summilux. Conversely, the M10 is the camera that is the natural successor to the M9, because it is very clearly focussed on stills photography, and nothing more than what you need for that. I've sold my M Edition 60, not because the M10 has been released or any other reason than rationalisation. I like the SL, and the combination of the SL (and two zooms), Monochrom & M-A (M lenses 15 (Zeiss), 21-28-50-75 (Summiluxes)) I'm happy. I'm not really a 35mm shooter, and the M Edition 60 just felt too much like an extravagance. I hope the buyer gets a lot of use out of it, as that is what it deserves. The M3 is a good starter camera for someone, and the AA Summicron 90 too close to the 75 Summilux to get much use. Back on topic, what Leica releases (as Jaap says) is interesting in terms of the direction of the company, but it doesn't change the functionality of my M9 version Monochrom. The cameras I have are the cameras I have for good reason, and I tend to wear them out, unless of course they no longer suit my needs. Paul J (if I understand him correctly) wants more MP and tethering in the M package. I don't share this need, and I don't think Leica will give him what he wants any time soon as it is inconsistent with where Leica seems to be taking the M series (reading the tea leaves). Notwithstanding that, he seems to be in line to buy an M10. Bill wants an EVF version - I think that's a great idea, but again I doubt it will come. Peter wants the M to be the best Leica. The thought that the M camera might play second best to the SL bugs him as it shows a change in priorities he doesn't like. He's bought an M10. My point is we all pick over what Leica has just offered and what they might offer next to get some idea of the direction of the company, but what is coming next doesn't change the quality of functionality of what we have already ... Since I joined this forum, I have been rather amazed that people with perfectly good M cameras and M lenses announce that "if Leica releases video in the M camera, I'm selling up and switching to Sony" and the like. I just don't understand. If anything pisses me off about Leica, it's that the electronics might not be supported in my silver chrome Monochrom before I manage to wear it out ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 21, 2017 Share #246 Posted February 21, 2017 It will get too little use. But I agree, I will be quite sad to see it go. Still, time left to think it over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 21, 2017 Share #247 Posted February 21, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am in the same position Jaap. I can continue on with what I have, but it's gone in a different direction and I will have to change sooner or later. Seems best to embrace it and tackle the change head on by selling off and moving on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted February 21, 2017 Share #248 Posted February 21, 2017 A little uncharitable, don't you think? I've been consistent in my views of the M(240). Owning a decent collection of good M lenses, I have a vested interest in where the M system is going. Or are you saying I shouldn't have an opinion? Leica makes the decisions, not me. For someone who is not shy about expressing his opinions about what Leica should or should not do, I'm surprised you would post this, Bill. I find it unnecessarily rude, to say the least ... Perhaps... and I apologise. And yes, you have been consistent in your views on the 240... as have I. We disagree on very little and I appreciate the things you both like and like less... Perhaps I read your first post a little less charitably than I should. Put it down to the fact the world seems to be becoming more and more prescriptive and less and less willing to simply live and let live... or rather, those who have always thought in a particular way are now able to voice their views and I am having more difficulty than I thought in accepting it. Visibility is valuable, it means we cannot pretend it isn't there to the point of self and group denial. But then, having to either accept or confront it on a daily basis... not so easy. So I over-react sometimes and think 'just leave people to like what they like and don't celebrate when something they enjoy is taken away from them... be it freedom of expression or even freedom to travel...'. (Seems I have exorcised my demons in this reply and discovered you were not, in fact, the demon I was responding to...! ) So, IkarusJohn, my apologies... ... and back to the topic. I would like an EVF version of an M camera so I could use it alongside my RF version... but thats me. I will almost certainly buy an M10-P and would love an electronic viewfinder M10-E at the same time to use with ultra wides and short telephoto's. The M is too beautiful in my view to spoil its classic lines... I've never liked the clip on meter or the EVF 2 or even the optical finders... but I'm quite happy accept that there are many who disagree with me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted February 21, 2017 Share #249 Posted February 21, 2017 Cherish your M240 folks. It will remain the first and last video capable rangefinder. The next compact camera fitting M lenses will have video and a fast EVF but no optical RF anymore. Just a bet. I hope you're right. I have two excellent rangefinder bodies already and I'm really not looking to add another. I will however take an interchangeable lens, compact, EVF, QL or whatever they want to call it. Please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 21, 2017 Share #250 Posted February 21, 2017 No problem, Bill. I appreciate the post, and I enjoy your expression of your opinions - your passion is ... impressive. In saying I'm pleased video is gone from the M10, I am simply expressing an opinion. Others have elaborated on the underlying reasons more eloquently and more authoritatively than I. I guess my reservation about developing the M is turning it into something it isn't. I certainly wouldn't buy an M that strayed into areas that aren't its strengths - the direct and physical control of core photographic variables. I should add that I have never taken pleasure in other people's disappointment - I'm not sure where you got that idea. As an aside, I'm interested in your comment about expression of opinion and visibility. I have always held to the view that I never post or email anything I wouldn't say to someone face to face. However, this should not be misinterpreted as requiring consensus or any expectation that others will agree with you or follow the same principle. We all strike people who say things we disagree with on the internet, and that is more interesting than reinforcing what we think already. The trick is to find out why they hold a differing view. There's no point in being offended by other opinions, but perhaps the way they're expressed. I like the exchanges forums like this provide because they are informative and generally polite. I don't react particularly well when the response is personal, repetitive or disrespectful, or just when people don't listen. This goes particularly for patronising comments made by senior people who should know better. Every now and then, some have a short stay in my ignore list. For some, it's permanent. But generally, I try to read people's posts for what I can learn, or to understand their different perspective. The trap is to care what others think of you, rather than simply expressing your views and responding politely and hopefully eloquently. Other people's bad days are not, afterall, my problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRJohn Posted February 21, 2017 Share #251 Posted February 21, 2017 Because it takes the M series into a direction that I do not want to take (just me, i is a marvelous camera just the same). It forced me to choose: follow Leica or go a different way. I chose the latter, which means adjusting my priorities. If Leica "forces" one to do anything, i.e. follow, it is indeed probably time to let go. How can it have so much power? Sounds a bit like Leica blues, it might go away when Spring arrives Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 21, 2017 Share #252 Posted February 21, 2017 The M240 and R lenses will be on the block after one last outing in a couple of months and I'll reduce the M lens collection too. I'm a bit surprised; you seemed to enjoy the EVF experience with the M240. And an upgraded M240 with better EVF doesn't seem far-fetched. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 21, 2017 Share #253 Posted February 21, 2017 If Leica "forces" one to do anything, i.e. follow, it is indeed probably time to let go. How can it have so much power? Sounds a bit like Leica blues, it might go away when Spring arrives The power of over 40 years of M photography... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted February 22, 2017 Share #254 Posted February 22, 2017 I should add that I have never taken pleasure in other people's disappointment - I'm not sure where you got that idea. No... and that was what I was apologising for... I took your points about being pleased the video was removed from the M10 and seeing it as a positive step, a 'rabbit hole' I think you referred to it as, yet there are many on here who actually enjoyed video on the M... (not that I am one of course... I have never used the video mode and it doesn't interest me..). but I am considerate of, and sympathetic towards, those that do. Its not as if anything is compromised... at least not in the 240. Its the same size as the preceding M digital cameras (assuming you ignore extensions such as the thumb wheel/rest etc...) and had plenty of battery power which is actually a benefit for those of us who only use the 'still' mode. I was clearly having a 'bad day' as you put it... and yes, not your problem... I like the fact that this forum allows us to express differing views... to a degree at least... but in the end, we are all clearly in a rather fortunate position and generally discuss what are truly very minor first world 'problems' which on occasion, I feel slightly guilty about. I'm off to bed now... and its fine, I feel suitably chastised! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 22, 2017 Share #255 Posted February 22, 2017 I'm invested in m43 and Leica M The Panasonic GX80 does superb image stabilized video and is very small and light ideal for hiking with the Leica/Panasonic 15/1.7. However the tonality is not up to the same level I see from the Leica M9 and M lenses. With improving dynamic range on the m43 sensors, it seems there has not been a corresponding increase in ADC bit depth to maintain micro-contrast and signal to noise. The M10 is on order and I expect the same use model to continue - m43 for snapshots and video ; M10 and film M for more considered work. The M.240 was never in the running - it fell short of being a good one camera does it all option. I don't understand. The M240 improved on the M9 in virtually every photographically significant respect. Or don't you agree? I know there's some disagreement about the CMOS sensor but I loved the improvement over the M9's sensor; it could do all the M9 sensor could, and plenty more. The viewfinder worked better for me long before I read that it had been improved. The battery life was better, the shutter sound was far better, the weather resistance was better, it had LV which was invaluable in some circumstances and enabled me to use R lenses and others that I couldn't use on the M9. The fact that it had video was always irrelevant to me, one inconspicuous button that I forgot about. The M10 feels like another natural progression of the M line to me, again improving on all the important photographic areas just enough to make it very attractive. Except battery life of course, but i think it will be tolerable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2017 Share #256 Posted February 22, 2017 ...I'm not moving away from Leica completely, I'm keeping the M9/MM1 and film Ms... So, I take it you've sold the M240. It must now be about two years ago, when I started a discussion on the M9 vs M240 color rendition, that you said you and I always started by disagreeing but eventually ended in the same position. If you did sell the your M240, you were partially right because I never bought the M240. But I just sold my M9 and MM before leaving Bangkok on Monday — I got a good there — and am waiting for my M10 here in Paris. _______________ Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2017 Share #257 Posted February 22, 2017 Not sold yet. And it would not be for the colour rendering, because I still don't see "better" colours out of the M9 - (or Monochrom ) The sole reasons are functional ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted February 22, 2017 Share #258 Posted February 22, 2017 I don't understand. The M240 improved on the M9 in virtually every photographically significant respect. Or don't you agree? ... The M10 feels like another natural progression of the M line to me, again improving on all the important photographic areas just enough to make it very attractive. Except battery life of course, but i think it will be tolerable. On release, I immediately felt that the next generation M.240 would be better: The actual ISO improvement did not seem that much The video was quite there yet If the magnified live view point could have been shifted off center that might have tipped the balance for me. The M10 gives me the big ISO improvement over the M9 and live-view shift Video the M43 system is good enough for me and fully self-contained - no glide-cam or rigs needed ; though might have to buy the 25/0.95 to narrower f/2 like depth of field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 22, 2017 Share #259 Posted February 22, 2017 I don't understand. The M240 improved on the M9 in virtually every photographically significant respect. Or don't you agree? Not to be argumentative, since these end up being personal reactions - but I don't agree. Here's why I just didn't like the M240, and found very little useful improvement, to compensate for some serious weaknesses: Useful improvement - really, just the quieter shutter/wind. M240 sensor issues - Troublesome color renditions - too much red contamination of other colors. Banding above ISO 3200, which meant only 0.3 stop improvement over M9 CCD (I can take strong noise that is evenly distributed like grain (Delta 3200); I can't use obvious unnatural "digital" artifacts like banding) Viewfinder - lack of full-time natural-light frameline illumination, and selection lever; constant extraneous light-show of ISO and/or exp.comp numbers every time I touched the shutter button. Weather resistance - menh. The M9 (and M8) could handle this - http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269639-weather-tight-m-lenses-is-it-possible/?p=3217922 - how much more extreme does it get? Battery life - I never go out without a backup battery anyway - anything can happen. Never ran out of juice with the M9 + 1 backup batt. Usually didn't even need the backup. Part of that of course is that in the M9 you don't have to turn the d*mn camera on, just to eyeball the framing. LV/EVF - some people like watching their pictures come together on a TV screen (a.k.a. Boob Tube), and some don't. I used EVFs/LCDs - when nothing else was available - in the Digilux 2 and Sony R-1. That was enough of that for a lifetime. The M10 addresses those issues, except for full-time framelines, which I've come to accept are just gone forever . I hope that is all understandable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2017 Share #260 Posted February 22, 2017 Andy, the viewfinder/RF of the 240 are considerably better than the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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