almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #781 Posted July 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Evidence? I've seen exactly the same online response to this M as to previous ones... I've seen a different response in the offline world, in that photographers that I know who were unconvinced by earlier digital Ms are buying M10s. I know many working photographers who never transitioned from film Ms to digital Ms for a variety of reasons. Those issues seem to have been addressed by the M10 and they're now dusting off their old M lenses. Leica also seem to be actively leveraging that renewed interest by ensuring that working photographers are allocated cameras despite the initial production shortage. Obviously, this is all anecdotal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 16, 2017 Posted July 16, 2017 Hi almoore, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #782 Posted July 16, 2017 Despite the M10 not being to the liking of Paul J, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is the camera that an awful lot of photographers have been waiting for and is proving to be a huge success for Leica. To me, and many others, this is close to being the perfect digital M. Far from alienating professional photographers with its minimalism, it's actually bringing them back into the fold. I suspect that Leica will survive the loss of Paul's support. Professional photographers? It is hard to imagine that a smaller battery, removal of the handgrip/USB, removal of the video, etc. is aimed at that group. It is more likely to appeal to amateurs/enthusiasts this way - and the strategy is working. I cannot think of a single one of the improvements made in the M10 being of any additional use to a working professional; well, maybe the EVF, but in that case it should have been as good or better as the SL. The professional market is of marginal interest to any camera maker anyway; it is a small percentage of the buyers. The main incentive to get professionals on board is to feed the general impression of professional use for marketing reasons.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted July 16, 2017 Share #783 Posted July 16, 2017 I've seen a different response in the offline world, in that photographers that I know who were unconvinced by earlier digital Ms are buying M10s. I know many working photographers who never transitioned from film Ms to digital Ms for a variety of reasons. Those issues seem to have been addressed by the M10 and they're now dusting off their old M lenses. Leica also seem to be actively leveraging that renewed interest by ensuring that working photographers are allocated cameras despite the initial production shortage. Obviously, this is all anecdotal. Agreed. And you will not know of all those who will not buy the M10 because of the absence of USB or video, unless they are existing Leica owners grumpy enough to post here. There's a similar argument with the TL2 at the moment: how many people will not buy the TL2 because it doesn't have flash vs those who will buy it because of better IQ and responsiveness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted July 16, 2017 Share #784 Posted July 16, 2017 I do believe that each new digital M has been a significant advance on its predecessor. And the particular qualities of the M10 stopped me jumping the Leica ship altogether (though other elements of that decision are under continual review!) It evidently isn't to everyone's liking in every respect and it doesn't mean you need to upgrade at every step, and many people can't afford to even if they'd like to, so they plan to skip a generation as many did with the M240 and M9. But talking to the people at the shop where I buy most of my Leica equipment , the closest I can get to objective information on this in the absence of hard sales figures, the M10 is proving very popular among existing users and is bringing in new customers to Leica in bigger numbers than previous digital Ms have done. Which feels in line with the impression given on this forum, and is closer to the way the transformative M9 was received, being the first full-frame digital M, than the M240, popular though that was too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #785 Posted July 16, 2017 Jaap, the camera is appealing to photographers because it doesn't just look like an M, for the first time in the digital age it feels like an M. Professional users, despite low sales, matter as part of a branding strategy. The M is part of the fabric of reportage photographic history, and the M10 has the potential to ensure that that tradition continues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted July 16, 2017 Share #786 Posted July 16, 2017 We can look here --> https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/ebanzwww/wexsservlet?global_data.language=en&session.sessionid=750a771f158eca10c06061aee5e6176f&page.navid=gotolastpage At some point they will release financial statements to the German public and you'll be able to see success of their product lines. At the moment they are reporting 2016 results so we will have to wait a year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 16, 2017 Share #787 Posted July 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Agreed. And you will not know of all those who will not buy the M10 because of the absence of USB or video, unless they are existing Leica owners grumpy enough to post here. There's a similar argument with the TL2 at the moment: how many people will not buy the TL2 because it doesn't have flash vs those who will buy it because of better IQ and responsiveness. So true. One of the first things many pros will look what software it is tethered with. It will come as a surprise that it can't be tethered at all. If it can't be then it's just no longer a of consideration. I can't imagine there will be many of these who will spend tens of thousands on a system that has limited capability, even if they don't tether every shoot. Even most cheap amateur models and even compacts tether. There is no telling how many people will react like this. It could be just me, it could be thousands. I agree that the M10 is the best M camera otherwise and would likely appeal to far more people. IMO, no tethering is a shoot-in-foot scenario that makes absolutely no sense when an optional grip would open up the system to far more people and not disappoint those who don't want a port on their body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted July 16, 2017 Share #788 Posted July 16, 2017 So true. One of the first things many pros will look what software it is tethered with. It will come as a surprise that it can't be tethered at all. If it can't be then it's just no longer a of consideration. I can't imagine there will be many of these who will spend tens of thousands on a system that has limited capability, even if they don't tether every shoot. Even most cheap amateur models and even compacts tether. There is no telling how many people will react like this. It could be just me, it could be thousands. I agree that the M10 is the best M camera otherwise and would likely appeal to far more people. IMO, no tethering is a shoot-in-foot scenario that makes absolutely no sense when an optional grip would open up the system to far more people and not disappoint those who don't want a port on their body. As an M10 enthusiast (though I had to use it for quite a while before I appreciated it) I've tended to overlook its shortcomings because they are irrelevant to me, and because it suits my purposes better than any other camera ever has, but I can entirely see your point of view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted July 16, 2017 Share #789 Posted July 16, 2017 So true. One of the first things many pros will look what software it is tethered with. It will come as a surprise that it can't be tethered at all. If it can't be then it's just no longer a of consideration. I can't imagine there will be many of these who will spend tens of thousands on a system that has limited capability, even if they don't tether every shoot. Even most cheap amateur models and even compacts tether. There is no telling how many people will react like this. It could be just me, it could be thousands. I agree that the M10 is the best M camera otherwise and would likely appeal to far more people. IMO, no tethering is a shoot-in-foot scenario that makes absolutely no sense when an optional grip would open up the system to far more people and not disappoint those who don't want a port on their body. Agreed. I haven't been on the forum for 6 years and 3000 posts without knowing that there are some people who will not buy a Leica with video, even if the video can be hidden. I find them strange people, but I acknowledge their right to exist and have such an opinion*. But I can't help thinking that lack of video and connectivity is more likely to reduce sales than increase them. One of the things that attracted me to Leica Ms in the first place (1981) was the versatility of the system. At various times I have owned a copying stand, a mechanical Visoflex and a few other wonderful gadgets to allow me to use the M for different purposes. They were clunky in the extreme, but they were masterpieces of engineering and they worked. If 'Das Wesentliche' is the reason for omitting a connector, or an option for an alternative use mode, then it goes against Leica's heritage. * Of course (but who knows?), it may be a designer's trade-off between body size, battery capacity, heat dispersion and video, in which case the choices are more complicated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2017 Share #790 Posted July 16, 2017 There is no telling how many people will react like this. It could be just me, it could be thousands. I agree that the M10 is the best M camera otherwise and would likely appeal to far more people. IMO, no tethering is a shoot-in-foot scenario that makes absolutely no sense when an optional grip would open up the system to far more people and not disappoint those who don't want a port on their body. Right, I agree that an optional grip with tethering capability would be a good thing for those that would need it. As more than a few have pointed out in this discussion perhaps that will come sooner rather than later. I do suspect though that there's not too many M users that require tethering. I know I don't in my work whatever the camera platform is that I'm using, so maybe it's not a priority with Leica as I'm sure they've done their market research when they figure out what they could leave out without hurting their prime customer base in any new model. As it is the M10 either suits what you would need it to do for you, or it doesn't. Although I'm certainly more than happy with it as it is for now, sure there's still oddities I don't like and a few things I would have wished for. All in all though it's an excellent tool but it's not going to do everything I need a camera to do and I knew that in buying it, but what I liked about the M10 easily outweighed the downsides. This is why many of us have more than one camera make or model and we pick up the one that suits the purpose on the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 16, 2017 Share #791 Posted July 16, 2017 Agreed. I haven't been on the forum for 6 years and 3000 posts without knowing that there are some people who will not buy a Leica with video, even if the video can be hidden. I find them strange people, but I acknowledge their right to exist and have such an opinion*. But I can't help thinking that lack of video and connectivity is more likely to reduce sales than increase them. One of the things that attracted me to Leica Ms in the first place (1981) was the versatility of the system. At various times I have owned a copying stand, a mechanical Visoflex and a few other wonderful gadgets to allow me to use the M for different purposes. They were clunky in the extreme, but they were masterpieces of engineering and they worked. If 'Das Wesentliche' was the reason for omitting a connector, or an option for an alternative use mode, then it goes against Leica's heritage. * Of course (but who knows?), it may be a designer's trade-off between body size, battery capacity, heat dispersion and video, in which case the choices are more complicated. Exactly this! Thankyou, you are so right, clunky but engineering marvels and totally charming and functional for those that need the application. Visoflex ( who else would make this?!), OUFRO's with no way of telling what's in focus, copy stands and bodies without rangefinders, Goggled lenses, Frankenfinders, 250 frame magazines, Leicavits, Winders, SOOKY, NOOKY, APDOO, (and every other funny acronym that is an equally funny contraption) finger loops, EVF, Microphones, SCA Flash brackets. It's a fascinating history and archive of German (and just plain camera history) ingenuity and resourcefulness. I also agree about the people who don't want video at all. I'm guessing it doesn't actually stop people from buying but they shouldn't be ignored. Leica has proven to have the design chops and the balls to make things work for most people. M240 to M-D. So I will hold on to hope for now and i hope this is marketing drive and one that remains or becomes inclusive to more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #792 Posted July 16, 2017 So true. One of the first things many pros will look what software it is tethered with. It will come as a surprise that it can't be tethered at all. If it can't be then it's just no longer a of consideration. I can't imagine there will be many of these who will spend tens of thousands on a system that has limited capability, even if they don't tether every shoot. Even most cheap amateur models and even compacts tether. There is no telling how many people will react like this. It could be just me, it could be thousands. I agree that the M10 is the best M camera otherwise and would likely appeal to far more people. IMO, no tethering is a shoot-in-foot scenario that makes absolutely no sense when an optional grip would open up the system to far more people and not disappoint those who don't want a port on their body. A battery grip, preferably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #793 Posted July 16, 2017 Jaap, the camera is appealing to photographers because it doesn't just look like an M, for the first time in the digital age it feels like an M. Professional users, despite low sales, matter as part of a branding strategy. The M is part of the fabric of reportage photographic history, and the M10 has the potential to ensure that that tradition continues. Possibly, but first-time buyers will not even know what an M "feels like" and professionals couldn't care less, provided the ergonomics meet their requirements. You mentioned reportage photography, video was exactly the feature that appealed for that particular use, even in the limited M240 form. An M10 with better Video would be the ultimate travel and reportage camera. Now one has to carry a separate system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 16, 2017 Share #794 Posted July 16, 2017 Right, I agree that an optional grip with tethering capability would be a good thing for those that would need it. As more than a few have pointed out in this discussion perhaps that will come sooner rather than later. I do suspect though that there's not too many M users that require tethering. I know I don't in my work whatever the camera platform is that I'm using, so maybe it's not a priority with Leica as I'm sure they've done their market research when they figure out what they could leave out without hurting their prime customer base in any new model. As it is the M10 either suits what you would need it to do for you, or it doesn't. Although I'm certainly more than happy with it as it is for now, sure there's still oddities I don't like and a few things I would have wished for. All in all though it's an excellent tool but it's not going to do everything I need a camera to do and I knew that in buying it, but what I liked about the M10 easily outweighed the downsides. This is why many of us have more than one camera make or model and we pick up the one that suits the purpose on the day. I agree and see your point. i do have more than one camera also, it's just that the M is one I use a lot and now it's one I won't use much which is a great disappointment. It was ingenious to add the sca flash port and jack to use flash and evf simultaneously with the M240 multifunction grip. I've read several people voice their need for that with the M10. Just makes sense to bring it back on that level alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted July 16, 2017 Share #795 Posted July 16, 2017 I'm done . When I wanted to trade my M240 for M10, the trade-in value was so low that I decided to keep M240. Now I'm happy to decide that, and I was not aware that the M10 could not replace M240 . I now realize that M10 can be my main body and M240 is the M to use when M10 is not practical: battery life, video, etc. And if M10 need to go to Wetzlar, I have one that is ready for the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #796 Posted July 16, 2017 Possibly, but first-time buyers will not even know what an M "feels like" and professionals couldn't care less, provided the ergonomics meet their requirements. You mentioned reportage photography, video was exactly the feature that appealed for that particular use, even in the limited M240 form. An M10 with better Video would be the ultimate travel and reportage camera. Now one has to carry a separate system. What makes you think professionals couldn't care less about the feel of a camera? If you're using a camera day in day out, the feel is immensely important, more important than to an amateur. Do you think a lot of reportage photographers use or need video? Even those that do often have a separate dedicated setup for the task rather than chop and change between stills and video. A decade ago, it looked like there was going to be a big swing from stills to video, but it never really happened. There a number of reasons for this, the most significant being the fact it's next to impossible to convincingly combine the two, so that means additional days needing to be assigned, and additional days mean more money. The only two news organisations that I know that are prepared to effectively budget for this are the NYT and Bloomberg News. The vast majority of reportage photographers have no need for video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #797 Posted July 16, 2017 Talking heads within a shoot? Quite common in corporate reportage. News PJs are something different. Although, have a look on the internet at Euronews, BBC News Channel, etc. As for combining, 4K is just the beginning... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #798 Posted July 16, 2017 Talking heads within a shoot? Quite common in corporate reportage. News PJs are something different... I agree that there's more integration of video in commercial photography, but we were specifically talking about reportage photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #799 Posted July 16, 2017 As for ergonomics, that is far more than Leica M enthusiasts mean by feel. I handled the M10 and it did little for me. "It feels like a film M" is of no interest when using a camera as a tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted July 16, 2017 Share #800 Posted July 16, 2017 Possibly, but first-time buyers will not even know what an M "feels like" and professionals couldn't care less, provided the ergonomics meet their requirements. You mentioned reportage photography, video was exactly the feature that appealed for that particular use, even in the limited M240 form. An M10 with better Video would be the ultimate travel and reportage camera. Now one has to carry a separate system. I came back to Leica after about 17 hiatus years because the M10 is the first useable Digital Leica camera that fits my needs. -useable ISO range -useable LCD screen for previews (I don't really use Live View). I am spoilt by other LCDs -Useable EVF that lets me use a wider range of lenses -acceptable weight and size (barely) -light weight and small lenses I couldn't care less about 4mm slimmer, for me its neither here nor there I don't need video, USB or other high tech stuff. Having said that I will not have objections to the M10 or M11 having all these items desired by Paul J if it does not cost me more money and doesn't bloat the camera. Which shouldn't be a problem as Leica tend to charge more to remove things than to put them in Other manufacturers have already lead the way with miniaturization. Paul J, I respect you for taking your stand and good luck. You are asking for something to be included in the M so you are really on an uphill battle here. I asked for a couple of lens extension (in the M10 - game changer?) and you should read the animosity I had to put with I don't see any problems why Leica cannot do a basic M11 without anything and one with everything. They need to get new customers in for the long term JAAP I quote you "Now one has to carry a separate system" and will hold you to this statement back at my thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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