M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[lct]

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People interested in M lenses may have no interest in rangefinders for whatever reason. Those people are not necessarily interested in big sensors either. They want the best possible IQ out of their M lenses and they need a focusing device accurate enough to warrant that. The only one i know of is the EVF so far and the only lens mount designed for M lenses is the M mount obviously. The L mount is just a compromise and AF lenses are another story. YM-should-not-but-MV .

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[pgk]

31 minutes ago, lct said:

People interested in M lenses may have no interest in rangefinders for whatever reason.

Really? Why?

[lct]

22 minutes ago, pgk said:

Really? Why?

They don't like RFs, they have one or several RFs already, they dislike accessory EVFs, especially sluggish Visoflexes, they cannot nail focus with an RF, their eyesight is not what it used to be, what else?

Edited February 11, 2020 by lct

[M11 for me]

Even though the M lenses are built for the M?

[lct]

10 minutes ago, M10 for me said:

Even though the M lenses are built for the M?

You mean the M1?  Just kidding but yes why not? I've been using my M lenses on various bodies in 30+ years: Leica rangefinders (M3, M4, M4-2, M6J, M8.2, M240), non Leica rangefinders (Epson R-D1 & R-D1s) and mirrorless cameras (Fuji X-E2, Ricoh GXR, Digital CL, Sonny A7s mod) with a lot of pleasure but i miss a mirrorless camera designed for M lenses actually.

Edited February 11, 2020 by lct

[duoenboge]

Maybe the M10, M10-P, M10M?

[M11 for me]

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb jankap:

New Leica M mount camera with EVF is rumored to be in the works (already rumored before😞 24MP sensor, body similar to the M240. The camera will have a native M mount and will be offered as an alternative to the M10

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/2020/02/09/whats-next-for-leica.aspx/#ixzz6DdqBJ6UH

M in "Mevf" stands for M mount (the bayonet) here.  

The Leica statements (leica rumors) are somehow interesting: If they ever would decide to build an M with EVF and another model without EVF then it is the same like the Q2 alongside with the Q. To the Q: if a vast majority of buyers say that they want the Q2 then the Q will eventually die. If the majority of the buyers reject that high amount of pixels and still continue buying the Q then the Q2 will die. But the latter will not happen. The same with the M. Once we see an M with EVF  ( Leica M-11E) and another one in parallel with classic rangefinder (Leica M-11R) then the EVF model will win. Think of Canon, Sony and all the others: The customers testify that EVF is better than DSLR (no lag etc). They say that they are happy to have done the move. I would think as well that an M-11E would be the end of the whole M-line as it is not an M anymore and over a short period of time an exchangeable product. Look at the CL. This is certainly an excellent product. But whoever thinks of IQ vs price gets much better products around the corner. The CL is excellent but others are just better; they have comparable  IQ but far better functionality at much lower price. Can the CL become a string pillar in Leica's business? Probably not. As long as the customers of Leica are behind the brand because of its outstanding performance only outstanding products will have a chance. Otherwise Leica might become a brand like Hermes etc: Expensive for customers who like the exclusive

Edited February 11, 2020 by M10 for me
Added a sentence

[pgk]

I've tried using M lenses on the T and A7II and to be honest neither worked particularly well for me. Any camera with a short sensor to mount distance can use an awful lot of lenses via adapters. But there's the rub. They all work the same way (mostly anyway with some exceptions if the aperture cannot be controlled) and whilst they can deliver good enough results its a bit of a faff and I can't see doing it without good reason. I simply don't see why a purpose built M (xM/-M😉) body would change this significantly. So as far as I'm concerned its all about form factor and nice as an M body is to use, I wouldn't be prepared to pay a large amount of money to have what is already available in the SL in an M shaped body. That said, hopefully, if such a camera is produced, some people will and when the used price drops one may be worth considering.

[pgk]

7 minutes ago, M10 for me said:

Think of Canon, Sony and all the others: The customers testify that EVF is better than DSLR (no lag etc).

But these cameras use fully compatible lenses with auto diaphragms and so on. A Leica M-EVF would not. Think about it - its a compromised system trying to adopt old technology (mechanical, MF and little data transfer) to a state-of-the-art EVF body. It won't be 'better' than a rangefinder because it will still be a compromise.

As an example of the 'problems' such a camera might have, if you are shooting a wide-angle (say 21mm) lens at f/16 using an EVF the the exact point of focus may not be that easy to ascertain because the EVF will show the view stopped down. Contrast this with the RF version and you might start to think that its not quite as straightforward as other cameras.

Edited February 11, 2020 by pgk
typo

[M11 for me]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb pgk:

But these cameras use fully compatible lenses with auto diaphragms and so on. A Leica M-EVF would not. Think about it - its a compromised system trying to adopt old technology (mechanical, MF and little data transfer) to a state-of-the-art EVF body. It won't be 'better' than a rangefinder because it will still be a compromise.

As an example of the 'problems' such a camera might have, if you are shooting a wide-angle (say 21mm) lens at f/16 using an EVF the the exact point of focus may not be that easy to ascertain because the EVF will show the view stopped down. Contrast this with the RF version and you might start to think that its not quite as straightforward as other cameras.

Thank you.

To be clear: I do not believe in an M with EVF. Neither from a marketing nor from a technical perspective

Edited February 11, 2020 by M10 for me
added a sentence

[mike3996]

I believed that Leica SL was already deemed to be as good a host for M lenses as M cameras themselves. It means an L mount camera with the adapter should serve all needs an M lens requires.

So I remain convinced that Leica should not dilute the M brand by an EVF-only model. Leave that for the SL line, perhaps introduce a smaller-size SLmini or something. (I would love a smaller-size SL variant myself!)

Edited February 11, 2020 by mike3996

[M11 for me]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb pgk:

But these cameras use fully compatible lenses with auto diaphragms and so on. A Leica M-EVF would not. Think about it - its a compromised system trying to adopt old technology (mechanical, MF and little data transfer) to a state-of-the-art EVF body. It won't be 'better' than a rangefinder because it will still be a compromise.

As an example of the 'problems' such a camera might have, if you are shooting a wide-angle (say 21mm) lens at f/16 using an EVF the the exact point of focus may not be that easy to ascertain because the EVF will show the view stopped down. Contrast this with the RF version and you might start to think that its not quite as straightforward as other cameras.

You are certainly right. There is a definite reason why DSLRs and mirrorless bodies with EVF work with lens wide open during metering. The lens closes down at the moment of exposing then the lens opens again. In an M this would not be possible. 

[evikne]

10 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

I believed that Leica SL was already deemed to be as good a host for M lenses as M cameras themselves. It means an L mount camera with the adapter should serve all needs an M lens requires.

So I remain convinced that Leica should not dilute the M brand by an EVF-only model. Leave that for the SL line, perhaps introduce a smaller-size SLmini or something. (I would love a smaller-size SL variant myself!)

But a mini SL or a FF CL will never be the same, because they lack the "coolness" of the real M. That's what people want. For Leica to succeed, I think they must manage to put an EVF into a real M body, and it must not be thicker than today's M10.

[Kwesi]

4 minutes ago, evikne said:

But a mini SL or a FF CL will never be the same, because they lack the "coolness" of the real M. That's what people want. For Leica to succeed, I think they must manage to put an EVF into a real M body, and it must not be thicker than today's M10.

In theory all this EVF -M talk sounds cool but does anyone really want to spend the rest of their lives focussing wide open then stopping down to working aperture before making the shot?

At that point you might as well get a view camera and a tripod! ( ok I'm exaggerating a little😀)

[pgk]

4 minutes ago, evikne said:

But a mini SL or a FF CL will never be the same, because they lack the "coolness" of the real M. That's what people want. For Leica to succeed, I think they must manage to put an EVF into a real M body, and it must not be thicker than today's M10.

Clearly some most certainly do. The question is not whether some want this or not, its about whether they are prepared to accept the compromises that it will inevitably have, because of the mechanical M lens system it will utilise, in what will be an expensive camera body (I can't see Leica making a cheap one!). As I have said, I can see its uses myself but I would not buy an expensive EVF body. So how many would pay the same as an M10 for one I wonder?

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, frame-it said:

I wonder if the M11 will have a version with this VF

https://patents.google.com/patent/DE102012009975B4/en

Discussed often since reported 5 years ago.  Only Leica knows, but so far they’ve only indicated that attempts at alternative M viewing have not proven acceptable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/leicarumors.com/2015/10/14/leicas-patents-for-optoelectronic-rangefinder.aspx/amp/

Jeff

[lct]

9 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

In theory all this EVF -M talk sounds cool but does anyone really want to spend the rest of their lives focussing wide open then stopping down to working aperture before making the shot?

I certainly do not, reason why i never focus wide open when i can avoid it. Best way to miss a shot due to field curvature and/or focus shift. 

[frame-it]

12 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Only Leica knows, but so far they’ve only indicated that attempts at alternative M viewing have not proven acceptable.

 

do you have a link for what they've indicated ?

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[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, frame-it said:

do you have a link for what they've indicated ?

Already linked above...

https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/08/very-interesting-hints-about-future-leica-products.aspx/

Plus mentioned in another similar interview  (can’t recall specifics), saying that attempts at a hybrid finder yielded unacceptable compromises, so far, to both.  But that was a while ago.

Jeff

[evikne]

I would like an EVF that could emulate the split image of a rangefinder. That way we could get the best of both worlds.