Dirk Mandeville Posted March 5, 2017 Share #81 Posted March 5, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Interesting. He was getting a reading of 1/125 from all the other cameras, while getting 1/60th from the M10 in a particular instance and saw this behavior across different scenes. I don't know what type of scenes he was shooting, though. Nor do I discount the possibility that other variables may be at play or that this is an anomaly with his particular camera, though I have seen some reports by others acknowledging similar behavior. Admittedly, I wouldn't call any of this "science." Just interesting observations that may or may not have relevance to the discussion. By the way, I would say the answer to your quiz is 18%, simply because 18% gray cards are what I have always used for metering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 5, 2017 Posted March 5, 2017 Hi Dirk Mandeville, Take a look here ISO 100 on M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
olgierdc Posted March 5, 2017 Share #82 Posted March 5, 2017 From synthesizing two information sources: First, "5) According to Leica, the M10 base ISO is "Somewhere between 100-150 ISO". " See post #50 on this thread. Second, from the DxO analysis of the M240, which tested the base ISO of that sensor as 135ish, Certainly neither 100 nor 200. ____________________ I still question the assumption that a hand-held meter is somehow the "gold standard" against which internal camera meters are to be judged. What it gives must be THE correct exposure, and if the M10 meter varies from that, it is the M10 meter that is "underexposing" or "overexposing." Says who? Pop quiz: What is the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) standard "luminance" to which all light meters are (or are supposed to be) calibrated? As expressed in "gray card reflectance." 1. 12% 2. 18% 3. 25% 4. 50% 12% Lightmeters are calibrated usually between 12 and 14%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 5, 2017 Share #83 Posted March 5, 2017 olgierdc wins the candy cigar! 18% gray cards were Ansel Adams' idea**, and work fine for neutralizing WB, and as a consistent gray for figuring out one's Zone System parameters. But they may give slightly dark exposures used for one-off metering with a meter "expecting" 12%. Anyway, I'm with everyone else who'd like to see what DxO comes up with. __________________ **something to do with the "geometric" (did he mean "logarithmic?") light response of film and/or the human eye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2017 Share #84 Posted March 6, 2017 An interest g discussion quite understandable that one wants to get the optimum out of the sensor. However trying to find the maximum dynamic range is quite pointless, as the photographic parameter one needs is the maximum exposure latitude, which can occur at a significantly different ISO as the maximum dynamic range. Reason: Dynamic range is the difference between clipped highlights and noise floor, but exposure latitude is the difference between last usable detail in shadows and highlights As the roll-off at the ends of the response curve of the sensor is non-linear and varies per sensor it can and will lead to varying optimal ISO values. Thought experiment: imagine a sensor that has a long roll-off in the shadows just above the noise floor but without usable detail. Optimal ISO for max exposure latitude will be considerably higher than base ISO for max dynamic range. The best thing to do is to shoot a standardised series of grey scales and pick the best one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted March 6, 2017 Share #85 Posted March 6, 2017 Certainly useful background information. Just tried it myself with my available gear. ISO 320, f/4, metering a medium gray object (but not, apparently, exactly an ANSI gray object - see Sekonic values), lighting from 45°. 4 "meterings" done with each to check consistency. Canon 6D - 1/40 sec. Leica M9 - 1/45 Leica M10 - variable 1/30-1/45 Sekonic L-308s, reflected mode - 1/80 Sekonic L-308s, incident mode - 1/40 The Sekonic in incident mode, of course, ignores the tone of the subject, and just measures the incoming light, so my chosen subject gray was probably lighter than the standard of xx% gray (no one has yet responded to my pop quiz - can't give away the answer. ) There's also the problem of "stepped" metering readouts - my Sekonic and Canon will never show 1/45 sec, just 1/40 or 1/50. While the Leicas will never show 1/40 or 1/50, just 1/30, 1/45, 1/60. And ttl camera metering is affected by lens extension factor (how close was the M10 to the subject?) and the accuracy of the specced f/stops with which metering is done (wide-open with the Canon, the shooting aperture with the Leicas). A measurement is just a measurement. Science is a measurement - with every other possible variable that might affect the measurement, eliminated or accounted for. I think one important element to take into consideration is optimal exposure, which is the exposure required to produce a correctly exposed raw, as opened in ACR. The optimal exposure may or may not agree with the camera meter or an external meter, and may be different from one camera model to another at similar ISO settings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 6, 2017 Share #86 Posted March 6, 2017 I do have to confess that - as a photojournalist - for me "optimal exposure" means "not too screwed up." If I'm pursuing moments like the one below (and for me, those are by far the most important things photography can contribute to human culture), I don't have time for reviewing, checking histograms or even careful metering. While it is nice, and necessary, to spend these first weeks figuring out the M10 in detail, in the long run, I'm going to be shooting in "A" mode, or "Sunny-16," or with, at best, an incident reading every few minutes if the light seems to be changing. And if using "A" - trying to find a presetting that will guarantee a salvageable picture regardless of whether what is sitting in the M10 metering pattern is black, 12% gray, or white. Probably, as with the M9, minus .3 or .7 exposure comp, set all the time (but I'm still experimenting.) Handshake for a Cop, Denver, 3 days after 9/11/2001, Leica M4-2, 21 Elmarit, exposure uncertain, film unknown, without digging out the negative (probably ISO 400, Kodak or Ilford). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/?do=findComment&comment=3227815'>More sharing options...
adan Posted March 6, 2017 Share #87 Posted March 6, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think one important element to take into consideration is optimal exposure, which is the exposure required to produce a correctly exposed raw, as opened in ACR. On that subject - I don't know if you have your M10 yet (or are even getting one). I'd just mention a little caution for everyone on initially opening their first M10 files. At least in ACR (which I also use). Holy Cats, has Leica installed a strong default midtone contrast curve! Especially at the lower ISOs. Probably in response to those who found the M240 default toning and saturation too flat and dull and not "M9-ish, CCD, Kodachrome-y" enough. There's lots of DR (or as Jaap would say, latitude) there - but you won't see it at Adobe's own default settings. (Although that may change when Adobe does their own M10 profiling). The shots below are with default (all zeros) ACR settings, at left, and showing what is really there, opening up the shadows on the right. ISO 100, no exposure comp. Exposure 1/350 @ f8. 21 Elmarit. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/?do=findComment&comment=3227892'>More sharing options...
otto.f Posted March 6, 2017 Share #88 Posted March 6, 2017 Certainly useful background information. Just tried it myself with my available gear. ISO 320, f/4, metering a medium gray object (but not, apparently, exactly an ANSI gray object - see Sekonic values), lighting from 45°. 4 "meterings" done with each to check consistency. Canon 6D - 1/40 sec. Leica M9 - 1/45 Leica M10 - variable 1/30-1/45 Sekonic L-308s, reflected mode - 1/80 Sekonic L-308s, incident mode - 1/40 The Sekonic in incident mode, of course, ignores the tone of the subject, and just measures the incoming light, so my chosen subject gray was probably lighter than the standard of xx% gray (no one has yet responded to my pop quiz - can't give away the answer. ) There's also the problem of "stepped" metering readouts - my Sekonic and Canon will never show 1/45 sec, just 1/40 or 1/50. While the Leicas will never show 1/40 or 1/50, just 1/30, 1/45, 1/60. And ttl camera metering is affected by lens extension factor (how close was the M10 to the subject?) and the accuracy of the specced f/stops with which metering is done (wide-open with the Canon, the shooting aperture with the Leicas). A measurement is just a measurement. Science is a measurement - with every other possible variable that might affect the measurement, eliminated or accounted for. I don't see much differences in this table, sorry. I just measured my bodies in comparison with my Gossen Digisix2. The M9, MM1, M10 and the incident reading of Gossen Digisix2 come all to exactly the same conclusion: 1/180 @ 2.8. Seems to me adan, with all respect, that you are coming in the neighborhood of splitting hairs here. Which is ok if that's your hobby, but the risk is spreading rumors about something being not quite right about the base-ISO of the M10 and creating some fog around this subject and I find that way out of proportion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olgierdc Posted March 6, 2017 Share #89 Posted March 6, 2017 I don't see much differences in this table, sorry. I just measured my bodies in comparison with my Gossen Digisix2. The M9, MM1, M10 and the incident reading of Gossen Digisix2 come all to exactly the same conclusion: 1/180 @ 2.8. Seems to me adan, with all respect, that you are coming in the neighborhood of splitting hairs here. Which is ok if that's your hobby, but the risk is spreading rumors about something being not quite right about the base-ISO of the M10 and creating some fog around this subject and I find that way out of proportion. Following experience: I have a little darker gray card compared to the Kodak card 18%. In M9 in mode A, we should take photo forward this card with exposure compensation set to 0 EV. In M240 in mode A, we should take photo with exposure compensation set to -1 EV to have the same level of brightness of both photos taking a sample from photos of gray card. If we measure the light with external light meter (incident light), in both cameras we should set the same value of the data that shows the meter including ISO, aperture and time (manual mode M). I have Gossen Starlite 2. Both photos will be of the same level of brightness taking a sample from photos of gray card. Metering in M10, it seems that works the same way as in M 240. Conclusion: If the camera is used in M mode with external light meter, no worries. If we use A mode, we should make the exposure compensation in M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2017 Share #90 Posted March 6, 2017 Umm, in digital photography, shouldn't we be careful about the placement of the highlights instead of the mid-grey values? Detail in the bright areas cannot be recovered, midtones are a choice in postprocesing, thus nearly irrelevant in the original exposure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olgierdc Posted March 6, 2017 Share #91 Posted March 6, 2017 Umm, in digital photography, shouldn't we be careful about the placement of the highlights instead of the mid-grey values? Detail in the bright areas cannot be recovered, midtones are a choice in postprocesing, thus nearly irrelevant in the original exposure. The problem is that Leica is too optimistic, trying exposure in A mode too much on the right side of the histogram. The measurement of the gray card is only a confirmation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2017 Share #92 Posted March 6, 2017 The amount of ETTR is governed by the contrast of the image - and of course by which level of highlight one wishes to retain. The subject matter dictates the exposure, not a blanket value. In other words, a low-contrast subject should be "overexposed" relative to a high-contrast one There is no one-setting-fits-all. Expose for the relevant highlights and adjust the rest in the computer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olgierdc Posted March 6, 2017 Share #93 Posted March 6, 2017 There is no golden rule. We can not rely on the automatic settings. Time to use our experience and the brain, as usual Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 6, 2017 Share #94 Posted March 6, 2017 I don't see much differences in this table, sorry. I just measured my bodies in comparison with my Gossen Digisix2. The M9, MM1, M10 and the incident reading of Gossen Digisix2 come all to exactly the same conclusion: 1/180 @ 2.8. Seems to me adan, with all respect, that you are coming in the neighborhood of splitting hairs here. Which is ok if that's your hobby, but the risk is spreading rumors about something being not quite right about the base-ISO of the M10 and creating some fog around this subject and I find that way out of proportion. Otto, I think you read my post before you had you morning coffee. My "table" shows just about exactly what you say your results were - there was not a significant difference between the M10 metering and other meters. The cameras, and the hand-held meter in incident mode, all metered to 1/40th second ±. Given the margin of error of the meters' digital readouts. Which was my point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted March 6, 2017 Share #95 Posted March 6, 2017 Otto, I think you read my post before you had you morning coffee. My "table" shows just about exactly what you say your results were - there was not a significant difference between the M10 metering and other meters. The cameras, and the hand-held meter in incident mode, all metered to 1/40th second ±. Given the margin of error of the meters' digital readouts. Which was my point. or too much coffee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted March 18, 2017 Share #96 Posted March 18, 2017 Yes - and ISO 200 is a push of about the same amount. Thus the DR ends up being slightly and about equally degraded from the maximum, which would be at a camera setting for ISO 135 - if such existed. And which my M10 field testing (as opposed to lab testing) seems to reflect - DR covers about the same net range at either 100 or 200. Adan, I finally found this logical explanation of otto.f's insightful comment on Leica's likely manipulation of an engineer's reality to the reality of the marketplace... whew Thank you both! So, all things considered, what is your preferred ISO setting using the M10, 100 or 200? After a few hundred clicks with mine, it feels like ISO 200 is a better starting point for pp because captures from the shorter exposure typically need only shadows lift. But you may have a more evolved conclusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted March 19, 2017 Share #97 Posted March 19, 2017 Certainly useful background information. Just tried it myself with my available gear. ISO 320, f/4, metering a medium gray object (but not, apparently, exactly an ANSI gray object - see Sekonic values), lighting from 45°. 4 "meterings" done with each to check consistency. Canon 6D - 1/40 sec. Leica M9 - 1/45 Leica M10 - variable 1/30-1/45 Sekonic L-308s, reflected mode - 1/80 Sekonic L-308s, incident mode - 1/40 The Sekonic in incident mode, of course, ignores the tone of the subject, and just measures the incoming light, so my chosen subject gray was probably lighter than the standard of xx% gray (no one has yet responded to my pop quiz - can't give away the answer. ) There's also the problem of "stepped" metering readouts - my Sekonic and Canon will never show 1/45 sec, just 1/40 or 1/50. While the Leicas will never show 1/40 or 1/50, just 1/30, 1/45, 1/60. And ttl camera metering is affected by lens extension factor (how close was the M10 to the subject?) and the accuracy of the specced f/stops with which metering is done (wide-open with the Canon, the shooting aperture with the Leicas). A measurement is just a measurement. Science is a measurement - with every other possible variable that might affect the measurement, eliminated or accounted for. Hi Adan, This interesting test of yours shows that the light meter in all your cameras concludes on the same exposure in your set up, indicating that the light meters are calibrated the same and not set up with any kind of compensation for deviating sensor sensitivity. Based on the discussion on if the Leica sensors are half a step more sensitive than their rating, it would be interesting to see the resulting pictures? Will they be equally bright from all three cameras or will the Canon be brighter? And will the be the same brightness as your grey card? Given proper calibration of your screen of course, so this is a bit difficult to measure.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 22, 2017 Share #98 Posted March 22, 2017 interesting results here: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/?do=findComment&comment=3239301'>More sharing options...
otto.f Posted March 23, 2017 Share #99 Posted March 23, 2017 Which shows that the highest dynamic range is at 100ISO for the M10, being the baseISO and not a pull Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olgierdc Posted March 23, 2017 Share #100 Posted March 23, 2017 What is more important: higher ISO, higher DR or better picture? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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