markforce Posted January 27, 2017 Share #121 Posted January 27, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) +1 I also use the technique of pointing the camera someplace else (of desired brightness) to lock the exposure and bring back and shoot. Very few times I can't use the above technique and I have to manually force the ISO down (by taking off auto) so that it doesn't overexpose. Shooting stage performance is one such example where bright lights on performers tend to fool the meter. You can either do exposure compensation (technique 1) or manually force the ISO down (technique 2). People have their own favorite technique. I myself have oscillated between them. I used to be exposure compensation guy but after I got burned once (shooting a bunch of pics with compensation accidentally on), I moved to explicitly controlling ISO in tricky situations. But exposure compensation is easier and I keep going back and forth. On the issue of checking what ISO camera is using (AUTO ISO and fixed both), I simply point the camera (M240) to the scene and press d-pad button which displays the exposure info on LCD. That clearly shows ISO and shutterspeed at eye level that camera is going to use when I press the shutter. Update: I understand the lure of being able to see ISO in OVF but IMHO, it will clutter it. There had been times when I have mistaken ISO as shutterspeed number on Canon. I would like to see only one number (which is shutterspeed) in OVF. But then I am not too strict with this. As long as the numbers are not confusing, I am fine. I like the way ISO and shutterspeed is displayed in EVF. Very clearly stated on top. That works too. Not sure if my M246 is playing tricks on me but I can see ISO (non-auto) in the OVF upon turning it on/half pressing shutter. Unless I am completely delusional on this lovely Friday afternoon... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 27, 2017 Posted January 27, 2017 Hi markforce, Take a look here Bad M10 ISO dial is bad. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jmahto Posted January 27, 2017 Share #122 Posted January 27, 2017 I wasn't aware ISO affected DR, but would when I think about it it's probably a gain bandwidth product limitation, with the product remaining constant. But, why does it take longer to write to the SD card with higher ISO settings? I am afraid, many users don't know this as well and think that high ISO only causes grainy pics that can be fixed in PP (with some loss in sharpness). This is why I resist using ISO as driving parameter for exposure. I have a feeling that mindset of fixing ISO first comes from strong film usage where you had to set the ISO first (directly or automatically read from film canister). Digital works differently. My guess is that high ISO files need to be "processed" by in-camera engine more than low ISO pic before writing to the card. Edit: I see that Michael also addressed the high ISO file write delay issue above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 27, 2017 Share #123 Posted January 27, 2017 Not sure if my M246 is playing tricks on me but I can see ISO (non-auto) in the OVF upon turning it on/half pressing shutter. Unless I am completely delusional on this lovely Friday afternoon... I just checked... Indeed my M240 shows me the ISO briefly in OVF when I switch on the camera. But after I half press, the value disappears, replaced by shutterspeed in A mode and exposure arrow in manual shutter mode. I guess this is useful for folks who don't want to take their eyes off the finder while shooting and find out ISO going to be used before shooting. Thanks.. you learn something every day on this forum. Edit: I further explored and it shows ISO in OVF every time it wakes up. Either by on/off switch or just by half pressing shutter. If it is already awake then half press doesn't show iso. Therefore for me if want to find out the ISO then I have two choices: - With eyes to OVF: turn switch off/on - With camera away from eyes: press d-pad button and see the value on LCD. Going back to M10, I guess it will work similarly, which means that in auto-ISO mode you will have to follow the above process to find out ISO being chosen by the camera. It is much easier to see ISO used by looking at the knob if ISO is selected directly. In this sense M10 is promoting direct ISO selection rather than auto-ISO usage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markforce Posted January 27, 2017 Share #124 Posted January 27, 2017 I just checked... Indeed my M240 shows me the ISO briefly in OVF when I switch on the camera. But after I half press, the value disappears, replaced by shutterspeed in A mode and exposure arrow in manual shutter mode. I guess this is useful for folks who don't want to take their eyes off the finder while shooting and find out ISO going to be used before shooting. Thanks.. you learn something every day on this forum. Edit: I further explored and it shows ISO in OVF every time it wakes up. Either by on/off switch or just by half pressing shutter. If it is already awake then half press doesn't show iso. Therefore for me if want to find out the ISO then I have two choices: - With eyes to OVF: turn switch off/on - With camera away from eyes: press d-pad button and see the value on LCD. Going back to M10, I guess it will work similarly, which means that in auto-ISO mode you will have to follow the above process to find out ISO being chosen by the camera. It is much easier to see ISO used by looking at the knob if ISO is selected directly. In this sense M10 is promoting direct ISO selection rather than auto-ISO usage. Played around with the M10 for a couple of minutes in-store today and found that it *did not* show the ISO figure in OVF, for what it is worth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 27, 2017 Share #125 Posted January 27, 2017 Played around with the M10 for a couple of minutes in-store today and found that it *did not* show the ISO figure in OVF, for what it is worth. Was it set to auto ISO, by any chance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markforce Posted January 27, 2017 Share #126 Posted January 27, 2017 Was it set to auto ISO, by any chance? Oh my short term memory... I recall changing ISO manually round and round.. certainly stopped at A as well at some point. Not a scientific test but it occurred to me, rather subconsciously I suppose, that there were no values displayed in the OVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 27, 2017 Share #127 Posted January 27, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) M10: No ISO in VF except: In M or in any set ISO from dial - No ISO displayed except for a brief moment on startup. In A from dial - Auto is displayed until you half press the shutter. I suppose this is a good reminder that the user knows the camera is set to Auto. (I'd have to think about why the display doesn't hold the M set value on start-up?). Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted January 27, 2017 Share #128 Posted January 27, 2017 If the iso dial is set to A, AUTO is shown in the OVF. Otherwise the set ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 27, 2017 Share #129 Posted January 27, 2017 If the iso dial is set to A, AUTO is shown in the OVF. Otherwise the set ISO. This seems to be different than M240. M240 shows you ISO to be used (based on metering of current scene) as you switch on the camera or wake up the camera. Then it disappears as you half press shutter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 27, 2017 Share #130 Posted January 27, 2017 If the iso dial is set to A, AUTO is shown in the OVF. Otherwise the set ISO. Yes, but only for a moment when you first turn on the camera then its gone. Quite frankly I never saw this until now...but hardly helpful. Also displaying "AUTO" doesn't help at all...I want to see what ISO auto choose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 28, 2017 Share #131 Posted January 28, 2017 In that case it is just an ornament. I am fine with such a dial as i know that many users will appreciate it. However, I don't think it should be there. ISO value is not an exposure parameter like aperture and shutter speed, as it does not control the amount of light reaching the sensor. It controls the way the sensor handles the light. It is a secondary control which should not have the same prominence as the primary ones. Maybe that is the reason why Leica made it lock-down. I wonder if the design process went like this: We are going to put another knob on the top of the camera in the place a film rewind knob would be, so it looks more like a film camera. So what function will we assign to it? I vote for EV compensation. No you want to alter that without removing your hand from the camera, so it needs to go on the back. Well we have to put something on the knob. We can't just leave it as a decorative feature. What about ISO? No that's not going to work, we can't get all the numbers on the dial. Oh well we will just put the bottom range of the ISO on the knob. Now for design features for the M11, how many speeds are we going to put on the slow speed shutter dial on the front of the camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted January 28, 2017 Share #132 Posted January 28, 2017 The ISO dial is not so bad. Not a bad looking camera with the dial. Leica have to keep some sort of innovation going, to keep moving forward. Some like the dial, others don't. Some want the latest from Leica, others don't. All the cameras take good pictures. ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 28, 2017 Share #133 Posted January 28, 2017 It's one of the few little negatives in an otherwise very good new model. Along with the fact that the screen sticks out, so the camera isn't really yet as slim as a film M, and has an added sharp edge to negotiate. And has reduced battery life as a consequence of this semi-illusory slimming. I'd much prefer a smooth, flush screen. These are the type of small things that Leica sometimes does that irritate a little, when they appear to go against their own creed of form following function and allow cosmetics to interfere with simply getting things right. But I accept these are minor quibbles. And some people like their extra knob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 28, 2017 Share #134 Posted January 28, 2017 Well we have to put something on the knob. We can't just leave it as a decorative feature. What about ISO? No that's not going to work, we can't get all the numbers on the dial. It's one of the few little negatives in an otherwise very good new model. And some people like their extra knob. I know there has been a ludicrous discussion revolving around the semantics of exposure and the appropriateness of allowing an ISO knob to intrude upon the purity of the M ideal but, assuming that isn't the problem, I don't understand what is actually wrong with this new feature? I was picking something up from the Leica shop yesterday and had a play with the new M10 (it was sitting there in the fancy display cabinet, so why not have a fondle?) and it seems like a remarkably polished product: the viewfinder is beautifully bright and clear and the controls all seem to fall into place just right. At the fourth attempt, Leica really seem to have nailed the digital M and the ISO knob, being an intuitive and practical interface for changing the ISO setting, seems like a perfectly natural part of the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 28, 2017 Share #135 Posted January 28, 2017 I know there has been a ludicrous discussion revolving around the semantics of exposure and the appropriateness of allowing an ISO knob to intrude upon the purity of the M ideal but, assuming that isn't the problem, I don't understand what is actually wrong with this new feature? I was picking something up from the Leica shop yesterday and had a play with the new M10 (it was sitting there in the fancy display cabinet, so why not have a fondle?) and it seems like a remarkably polished product: the viewfinder is beautifully bright and clear and the controls all seem to fall into place just right. At the fourth attempt, Leica really seem to have nailed the digital M and the ISO knob, being an intuitive and practical interface for changing the ISO setting, seems like a perfectly natural part of the product. One or two people have said it's fiddly to use. It doesn't sound ideal to me. That's all. I hope I'm wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 28, 2017 Share #136 Posted January 28, 2017 One or two people have said it's fiddly to use. It doesn't sound ideal to me. That's all. I hope I'm wrong. Seemed fine to me. I guess if you are in the habit of fiddling around with the ISO setting on a shot by shot basis it might be a little slower to twiddle the knob than to press a button and whirl a wheel but that's not how I use ISO. I typically only alter the ISO when my circumstances have changed – I've gone indoors, there's a sudden unexpected solar eclipse or I've changed my mind – and twirling the knob seems a perfectly direct method of making that alteration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 28, 2017 Share #137 Posted January 28, 2017 One or two people have said it's fiddly to use. It doesn't sound ideal to me. That's all. I hope I'm wrong. The knob is extremely well executed and solidly built...there is absolutely nothing "fiddly" about it. Its one of my favorite new features. My guess is that these "one or two people" spent a total of ten minutes with the camera in a store. Id suggest you reserve judgement until after you have spent a bit more time with the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted January 28, 2017 Share #138 Posted January 28, 2017 Seemed fine to me. I guess if you are in the habit of fiddling around with the ISO setting on a shot by shot basis it might be a little slower to twiddle the knob than to press a button and whirl a wheel but that's not how I use ISO. I typically only alter the ISO when my circumstances have changed – I've gone indoors, there's a sudden unexpected solar eclipse or I've changed my mind – and twirling the knob seems a perfectly direct method of making that alteration. I don't change ISO very often either, and the M240 control is fine, which is why adding an extra knob and changing the design to accommodate it feels a trifle excessive to me, and as Wilson suggests, probably a solution to a problem they invented for themselves. I think X1D method is better. Press the button on the top plate and turn the control dial in the grip to change the setting, all with the camera to still your eye, as you can with my Fuji too. So it's no big deal but less than ideal. For me anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 28, 2017 Share #139 Posted January 28, 2017 I don't change ISO very often either, and the M240 control is fine, which is why adding an extra knob and changing the design to accommodate it feels a trifle excessive to me, and as Wilson suggests, probably a solution to a problem they invented for themselves. I take your point but there is something satisfying about buttons and knobs that are a direct physical representation of a quantity (and which are physically moved between those represented quantities) than buttons and knobs which are at least one step removed (are virtual) from the quantity being changed. It's one of the reasons that I have never warmed to the soft key interface on the back of the S camera (which I have had to use for a few jobs) or the SF-58 flash which I own. Nor have I ever liked the wheel type method of changing the shutter speed and aperture on modern DSLRs. I get by but it doesn't feel as direct (because it isn't) as using dedicated analogue knobs. I can't think of an easier and more intuitive way of changing the oven temperature than by turning the knob to a higher or lower setting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 28, 2017 Share #140 Posted January 28, 2017 I can't think of an easier and more intuitive way of changing the oven temperature than by turning the knob to a higher or lower setting. this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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