sinwen Posted February 1, 2017 Share #221 Posted February 1, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) As did many Leica owners... and now they are telling us an EVF in a M body isn't possible. Which is total nonsense of course if you have any understanding at all... The fact is, some people just don't want to even add an additional thing to the M range as they think if it is successful, then it may spell the end of the mechanical OVF M. Which I think is nonsense... there will always be those who want the M as it is... and the M10 tends to suggest Leica know exactly how to please those customers. Now all they need to do is please those of us who see the advantage in both and those new customers who want a high quality camera without all the 'weird stuff' that an M entails... (and yes, to sensible consumers who appreciate the quality, the "M' s little oddities look daft, rather than 'quaint' or 'traditional'). I can see myself with an M10-P and an M10-E in the not too distant future... I think they have realised that telling people something 'can't be done' and then doing it a few years later, just gets 'old' very quickly and some customers (understandably) just end up losing faith in anything they say... Leica enter the digital age ten years late. The reason is obvious, digital camera business isn't photo business, it is consumers business. They couldn't handle that at first. They dropped some unreliable electronic into a box and asked as usual a premium for it ! They are excellent at optics and micro mechanical but electronic is something else. As your post shows, they are still pulled and pushed between these two industries. Today many manufacturers are able to produce wonderful lenses for 1/4th of the Leica lens price and their craftmanship has nothing to envy anymore to Leica. The difference is that Leica dominate its core business which is photography, they know what you need to operate flawlessly . The others are more on the consumers side and believe the more butons and dials and programs the better. The day a Japanese manufacturer understand that and make a real photographic tool going straight to the core of "photo taking", Leica would be in trouble. It is not strange to me to note that two manufacturers went sligthly this route, Pana and Fuji, they both had partnership with Leica. A good photographic tool has to be simple to be effective, and to take good pictures you must master your technic, no automatism is going to replace that, never, even if marketing want you to believe it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 Hi sinwen, Take a look here Survey: Interested in the new Leica M10?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter H Posted February 1, 2017 Share #222 Posted February 1, 2017 Leica enter the digital age ten years late. The reason is obvious, digital camera business isn't photo business, it is consumers business. They couldn't handle that at first. They dropped some unreliable electronic into a box and asked as usual a premium for it ! They are excellent at optics and micro mechanical but electronic is something else. As your post shows, they are still pulled and pushed between these two industries. Today many manufacturers are able to produce wonderful lenses for 1/4th of the Leica lens price and their craftmanship has nothing to envy anymore to Leica. The difference is that Leica dominate its core business which is photography, they know what you need to operate flawlessly . The others are more on the consumers side and believe the more butons and dials and programs the better. The day a Japanese manufacturer understand that and make a real photographic tool going straight to the core of "photo taking", Leica would be in trouble. It is not strange to me to note that two manufacturers went sligthly this route, Pana and Fuji, they both had partnership with Leica. A good photographic tool has to be simple to be effective, and to take good pictures you must master your technic, no automatism is going to replace that, never, even if marketing want you to believe it. I agree in principle, and yet there are countless wonderful photographers making wonderful photos using Japanese cameras, and no doubt some of them even use some of their features. Even in this forum, even among people who have already bought the M10 and love it for its simplicity, and others who are planning to buy it, there are plenty of people asking for more features: an electronic shutter for example, or an electronic level, because it will help their type of photography. Simplicity comes in many forms. It is not just a matter of fewer features and buttons, but of making photography simpler for you, and how that works will depend on the type of photography you do. and we are not all the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsv Posted February 1, 2017 Share #223 Posted February 1, 2017 "My question is will an M10 (with what will be the essential and expensive three batteries, a grip and an EVF) be able to replace the more rounded use-ability of an SL? " What kind of leading question is that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 1, 2017 Share #224 Posted February 1, 2017 "My question is will an M10 (with what will be the essential and expensive three batteries, a grip and an EVF) be able to replace the more rounded use-ability of an SL? " What kind of leading question is that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stradly1 Posted February 1, 2017 Share #225 Posted February 1, 2017 Leica Camera yesterday introduced the new Leica M10 which focusses even more on rangefinder photography. Question to the Leica M photographers: Is the Leica M10 tempting for you? Please vote above (choose the option which fits best to your opinion) And please comment below What's the decisive feature to order a Leica M10? Or what is the point not to buy it? I think the camera is going to be fantastic! My only problem is the price. I have an M6TTL and a non film scratch R8. I haven't been able to get any decent digital cameras save a Fuji X100. This digital Leica is the only one out of the bunch of Leica that makes me want to save for. I don't need a video camera in my still camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
824387 Posted February 2, 2017 Share #226 Posted February 2, 2017 I am mainly a landscape photographer and as such, use a tripod most of the time. As I always use a quick release plate attached to the bottom of my camera, changing the battery and memory card on the M10 would require removal of the quick release plate which is far too cumbersome. The battery and memory card should be accessible from the side of the camera. I would also prefer a higher resolution sensor with a base ISO dynamic range of at least 3.6. The M10 is beautiful and I had hoped that this would be the version that would enable me to buy but unfortunately it is not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted February 2, 2017 Share #227 Posted February 2, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am mainly a landscape photographer and as such, use a tripod most of the time. As I always use a quick release plate attached to the bottom of my camera, changing the battery and memory card on the M10 would require removal of the quick release plate which is far too cumbersome. The battery and memory card should be accessible from the side of the camera. I would also prefer a higher resolution sensor with a base ISO dynamic range of at least 3.6. The M10 is beautiful and I had hoped that this would be the version that would enable me to buy but unfortunately it is not. In your case you should get the RRS baseplate which nicely replaces the stock baseplate and has built in Arca Swiss compatible grooves as well. It is no harder to remove than the standard base plate and even comes in an L bracket version (or at least these were made for the M240 and it seems likely they will be made for the M10). Yes, it is a 24MP sensor, but I expect it will have very good dynamic range at base ISO. Those are the reports for now at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 2, 2017 Share #228 Posted February 2, 2017 I am mainly a landscape photographer and as such, use a tripod most of the time. As I always use a quick release plate attached to the bottom of my camera, changing the battery and memory card on the M10 would require removal of the quick release plate which is far too cumbersome. The battery and memory card should be accessible from the side of the camera. I would also prefer a higher resolution sensor with a base ISO dynamic range of at least 3.6. The M10 is beautiful and I had hoped that this would be the version that would enable me to buy but unfortunately it is not. I don't think you will ever see an M camera with side mount battery or SD card...so if this is a deal breaker, the M will likely never be an option. Although changing the card/battery every 400 or so shots cant be that much of a hassle. +1 for the RSS base, although its currently not available for the M10, and I was told that they don't have immediate plans to make one. RE: base ISO dynamic range of at least 3.6 What does this mean? The M10 has a base iso of 100 and DR is about 14 stops Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted February 2, 2017 Share #229 Posted February 2, 2017 I had been waiting to see the specs. I now intend to buy the SL as a complement to my M240. I shall not buy that M10 , I keep my M240 or change it for the SL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted February 2, 2017 Share #230 Posted February 2, 2017 I like the agility with which Leica, as a smaller company, can keep new ideas coming -- and ideas that are responsive to what their customers have been requesting (AFAIK). The M10 has a desirable set of improvements so will be on my watch list for a future upgrade. The one feature they did not include is to show a single frame line per lens. Now that the framelines can be electronically generated, I should have thought this was not a particularly difficult request. Maybe other customers like two framelines in the display, but I find it distracting at best and confusing at worst, esp. 50/75. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted February 2, 2017 Share #231 Posted February 2, 2017 I like the agility with which Leica, as a smaller company, can keep new ideas coming -- and ideas that are responsive to what their customers have been requesting (AFAIK). The M10 has a desirable set of improvements so will be on my watch list for a future upgrade. The one feature they did not include is to show a single frame line per lens. Now that the framelines can be electronically generated, I should have thought this was not a particularly difficult request. Maybe other customers like two framelines in the display, but I find it distracting at best and confusing at worst, esp. 50/75. As I understand it the framelines are not electronically generated, they are just illuminated by an LED. I believe they are still metal grids that are activated by the lens and there is only room for three of them and hence the need for pairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted February 2, 2017 Share #232 Posted February 2, 2017 As I understand it the framelines are not electronically generated, they are just illuminated by an LED. I believe they are still metal grids that are activated by the lens and there is only room for three of them and hence the need for pairs. That's my understanding too. But surely replacing the metal grids with an electronic "grid" would not be difficult with modern ICs etc. Not sure that other people share my preferences since I never see that request in the various discussions about improvements. Would you like to see a single frame line per lens? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhwoods Posted February 2, 2017 Share #233 Posted February 2, 2017 I'd love to get one with a good old Summicron 50, to remember my marvelous 60-years-old times with the M3. But...at 82, having owned no less than 470 Leica bodies, 600 lenses and 1,000 accessories through my Fontenelle Collection, and now walking with a tiny V-Lux 20 always ready in my pocket, I believe it wouldn't be really serious. Time has - and is gone... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhwoods Posted February 2, 2017 Share #234 Posted February 2, 2017 May I say your devotion to Leica and to photography will defy time. You, Sir, are timeless in every good sense of that word. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhwoods Posted February 2, 2017 Share #235 Posted February 2, 2017 I'd love to get one with a good old Summicron 50, to remember my marvelous 60-years-old times with the M3. But...at 82, having owned no less than 470 Leica bodies, 600 lenses and 1,000 accessories through my Fontenelle Collection, and now walking with a tiny V-Lux 20 always ready in my pocket, I believe it wouldn't be really serious. Time has - and is gone... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
824387 Posted February 3, 2017 Share #236 Posted February 3, 2017 I don't think you will ever see an M camera with side mount battery or SD card...so if this is a deal breaker, the M will likely never be an option. Although changing the card/battery every 400 or so shots cant be that much of a hassle. +1 for the RSS base, although its currently not available for the M10, and I was told that they don't have immediate plans to make one. RE: base ISO dynamic range of at least 3.6 What does this mean? The M10 has a base iso of 100 and DR is about 14 stops Yes, you are correct, I meant to type, "base ISO of 13.6" (stops), not 3.6 and if the M10 has a DR of 14 stops at a base ISO of 100, then that is fantastic. I wasn't aware of the RRS plate for the M until the previous poster suggested it. Changing the battery and card quickly is important and the quick release plate that I am currently using requires unscrewing it from the camera via an allan wrench so it is quite cumbersome and time consuming to have to do this every time you need to change the battery or card. 400 shots per battery is probably at above freezing temps. At -20C to -30C in winter, it will be much less. I have gotten as few as around 50 shots from a 2600 mAh battery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted February 3, 2017 Share #237 Posted February 3, 2017 That's my understanding too. But surely replacing the metal grids with an electronic "grid" would not be difficult with modern ICs etc. Not sure that other people share my preferences since I never see that request in the various discussions about improvements. Would you like to see a single frame line per lens? I suspect single frame would became reality when EVF supersedes optical VF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 3, 2017 Share #238 Posted February 3, 2017 Yes, you are correct, I meant to type, "base ISO of 13.6" (stops), not 3.6 and if the M10 has a DR of 14 stops at a base ISO of 100, then that is fantastic. I wasn't aware of the RRS plate for the M until the previous poster suggested it. Changing the battery and card quickly is important and the quick release plate that I am currently using requires unscrewing it from the camera via an allan wrench so it is quite cumbersome and time consuming to have to do this every time you need to change the battery or card. 400 shots per battery is probably at above freezing temps. At -20C to -30C in winter, it will be much less. I have gotten as few as around 50 shots from a 2600 mAh battery. The RSS plate for the M10 is not available. I sent them an email last week and the reply was: We have yet to commit to designing a plate for the Leica M10, but if we do we will send out an email to all of our current newsletter subscribers. Ive used there products for years, outstanding gear and the M240 Baseplate was very nice, although a bit bulky and heavy. It had a large thumb screw and was very easy to remove. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted February 3, 2017 Share #239 Posted February 3, 2017 I was very excited about the changes Leica did to the M10 coming from the monstrosity the M240 platform is as a Leica M and was pretty sure that I will pick one up the first chance I have. Yesterday I had a touch and feel of the new camera for the first time in a shop (no cameras were available for purchase though with long waiting lists). I have to say: - great, great new finder - the very biggest improvement about this digital Leica M with the best finder since the 0.85x film body finders (time to offer the digital M with different magnifications again Leica!) - the newer EVF is miles ahead of the chintzy old EVF-2, although I have hardly ever used my EVF on a digital M as it is just a terrible way of seeing for me - the ISO dial is something I am now undecided on (the issue being the too strong detent to lift it - you either have to have it lifted up all the time while shooting and changing ISO frequently or you have to do the "right hand two finger reach around" in order to pull it out with two fingers and be able to change ISO (I shoot only manual ISO on all my cameras and do change ISO very frequently as the light changes as to keep ISO low and have full control over my shutter speeds) After a first play it simply would seem more logical to have stronger ISO detents and NO lock out or have a different designed lockout like on many other manual cameras (center lock button on top of the dial which can be operated much easier and also provides a secure lock against knocking and accidental resetting). A spring loaded button would have been nice - lift it up and twist to set ISO (even with your left thumb only) - completely safe from knocking the setting off too - maybe in the next round of changes. But here is the thing: I didn't feel it, I didn't feel it at all. There was no buying urge whatsoever. Sure the new finder is a fantastic upgrade (this really should be the news #1 on the M10 and most hotly discussed change (not the thinner body, which is nice too but is hardly noticed in actual use). There simply was no moment of "man this is great, I must have one" After having played with it in the shop I actually want it less than after I have read the blurb about the changes on introduction - I am still fully convinced though that this is Leica going into the right direction again after the M240 abomination - letting the M240 die off and keeping the line of proper M cameras continuous is the right thing to do. I hope Leica offers a M10-MM better even a M10-MM-D ASAP so I can replace that M246 I didn't like from the start. Btw - shooting a couple of Nikon rangefinder cameras currently and being very happy about those ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 3, 2017 Share #240 Posted February 3, 2017 I was very excited about the changes Leica did to the M10 coming from the monstrosity the M240 platform is as a Leica M and was pretty sure that I will pick one up the first chance I have. Yesterday I had a touch and feel of the new camera for the first time in a shop (no cameras were available for purchase though with long waiting lists). I have to say: - great, great new finder - the very biggest improvement about this digital Leica M with the best finder since the 0.85x film body finders (time to offer the digital M with different magnifications again Leica!) - the newer EVF is miles ahead of the chintzy old EVF-2, although I have hardly ever used my EVF on a digital M as it is just a terrible way of seeing for me - the ISO dial is something I am now undecided on (the issue being the too strong detent to lift it - you either have to have it lifted up all the time while shooting and changing ISO frequently or you have to do the "right hand two finger reach around" in order to pull it out with two fingers and be able to change ISO (I shoot only manual ISO on all my cameras and do change ISO very frequently as the light changes as to keep ISO low and have full control over my shutter speeds) After a first play it simply would seem more logical to have stronger ISO detents and NO lock out or have a different designed lockout like on many other manual cameras (center lock button on top of the dial which can be operated much easier and also provides a secure lock against knocking and accidental resetting). A spring loaded button would have been nice - lift it up and twist to set ISO (even with your left thumb only) - completely safe from knocking the setting off too - maybe in the next round of changes. But here is the thing: I didn't feel it, I didn't feel it at all. There was no buying urge whatsoever. Sure the new finder is a fantastic upgrade (this really should be the news #1 on the M10 and most hotly discussed change (not the thinner body, which is nice too but is hardly noticed in actual use). There simply was no moment of "man this is great, I must have one" After having played with it in the shop I actually want it less than after I have read the blurb about the changes on introduction - I am still fully convinced though that this is Leica going into the right direction again after the M240 abomination - letting the M240 die off and keeping the line of proper M cameras continuous is the right thing to do. I hope Leica offers a M10-MM better even a M10-MM-D ASAP so I can replace that M246 I didn't like from the start. Btw - shooting a couple of Nikon rangefinder cameras currently and being very happy about those ;-) Abomination and monstrosity are two very inappropriate and unjustified words to describe the M240 series. There are many satisfied users who would disagree with your OTT opinion. Furthermore, there is no such camera as a 'proper M' … all Ms differ and for good reasons. Enjoy your Nikon rangefinders and may they prove to be more reliable than other users' experiences suggest. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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