Bill Livingston Posted December 21, 2016 Share #61 Posted December 21, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I brought it up as there is a general misunderstanding ( as expressed in this thread as well) that focus shift is an exclusive rangefinder issue. Exactly. Focus shift is to do with the plane of focus moving as the aperture is closed to the taking aperture (at least thats my understanding). But if you were already at the taking aperture, which you would be with M lens... and focussing through an EVF, the point of focus is seen through the lens, at that aperture, because you are checking focus via the sensor. Therefore, with EVF focussing, you negate any focus shift the lens has... don't you? And you don't if you are using a optical rangefinder. Thats why the SL doesn't have these issues either. My point was, by allowing a EVF in an M body you immediately negate focus shift... don't you? Its not that focus shift is exclusively a rangefinder issue... its that using a sensor based focus method, you don't have the effect of it in the final image. Its not quite the same thing and explaining it any other way can be very misleading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 Hi Bill Livingston, Take a look here Sell M to get M10?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Bill Livingston Posted December 21, 2016 Share #62 Posted December 21, 2016 I don't agree. M cameras have been a phenomenon as such. Just recall the M3, or the M5 debacle. I use lenses from 5 different M-mount brands on my M. And you still could. Jaap. Thats the point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 21, 2016 Share #63 Posted December 21, 2016 Exactly. Focus shift is to do with the plane of focus moving as the aperture is closed to the taking aperture (at least thats my understanding). But if you were already at the taking aperture, which you would be with M lens... and focussing through an EVF, the point of focus is seen through the lens, at that aperture, because you are checking focus via the sensor. Therefore, with EVF focussing, you negate any focus shift the lens has... don't you? And you don't if you are using a optical rangefinder. Thats why the SL doesn't have these issues either. My point was, by allowing a EVF in an M body you immediately negate focus shift... don't you? Its not that focus shift is exclusively a rangefinder issue... its that using a sensor based focus method, you don't have the effect of it in the final image. Its not quite the same thing and explaining it any other way can be very misleading. Yes, sensor based focusing (at the operating aperture) doesn't have to deal with focus shift, however with a narrow aperture (very wide DOF), finding optimal focus point is also a challenge with EVF. Bottom line is that EVF is not a solution to all focusing issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted December 21, 2016 Share #64 Posted December 21, 2016 Yes, sensor based focusing (at the operating aperture) doesn't have to deal with focus shift, however with a narrow aperture (very wide DOF), finding optimal focus point is also a challenge with EVF. Bottom line is that EVF is not a solution to all focusing issues. Agreed. But 4x or 10x magnification during focus helps considerably and its probably the best focussing solution currently available to reduce this and many other focus issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 21, 2016 Share #65 Posted December 21, 2016 Yes, sensor based focusing (at the operating aperture) doesn't have to deal with focus shift, however with a narrow aperture (very wide DOF), finding optimal focus point is also a challenge with EVF. Bottom line is that EVF is not a solution to all focusing issues. Focus peaking pretty much easy to get spot on handheld electronic split screen is a pain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 21, 2016 Share #66 Posted December 21, 2016 Agreed. But 4x or 10x magnification during focus helps considerably and its probably the best focussing solution currently available to reduce this and many other focus issues. ... but not necessarily a fast method of focusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 21, 2016 Share #67 Posted December 21, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Focus peaking pretty much easy to get spot on handheld It depends on how sharp the lens is, how much finely tuned peaking algorithm is and how it is interpreted by photographer. You may have lenses that don't even trigger peaking and others that trigger loads of peaking. Unless you have peaking algorithm tuned to each lens, it is only so much useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 21, 2016 Share #68 Posted December 21, 2016 Looking back at the subject line, my guess is that M10 is certainly not a leap forward in focusing accuracy or speed compared to M240. Buy it for any other reason. Not for focusing improvement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 21, 2016 Share #69 Posted December 21, 2016 Focus peaking is almost useless with wides. Only solution is image magnification. Works fine even at little apertures as shown above but cannot be as fast as a good RF. There is no free lunch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 21, 2016 Share #70 Posted December 21, 2016 Focus peaking is almost useless with wides. Not really once you understand where you are physically in relation to your subject one can get the required focus pretty spot on anyway at f8,f11,f16, f22 focusing is not a big issue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 21, 2016 Share #71 Posted December 21, 2016 I hope you all understand that the OP, as hundreds before him, is looking for fellow conspirators. or allies to rationalize his decision, so in the end he feels justified. Photographers do not worry about such things, , Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 21, 2016 Share #72 Posted December 21, 2016 Maybe the OP just wants a tailor made camera to suit personal needs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted December 21, 2016 Share #73 Posted December 21, 2016 We have 4 versions of the M ... 4 digital... and 3 film !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted December 21, 2016 Share #74 Posted December 21, 2016 I think you are misunderstanding my posts... ha... it certainly looks that way :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted December 21, 2016 Share #75 Posted December 21, 2016 Probably me not being clear enough... apologies :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 21, 2016 Share #76 Posted December 21, 2016 Yes, sensor based focusing (at the operating aperture) doesn't have to deal with focus shift, however with a narrow aperture (very wide DOF), finding optimal focus point is also a challenge with EVF. Bottom line is that EVF is not a solution to all focusing issues. Not really. If there is an optimal focal point for that image, you will see it - you are looking at the final image. More critically, you do actually see the depth of field, and can adjust accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 21, 2016 Share #77 Posted December 21, 2016 Not really. If there is an optimal focal point for that image, you will see it - you are looking at the final image. More critically, you do actually see the depth of field, and can adjust accordingly. When I say it is a challenge, I meant that you will have to evaluate the final image. Not a very fast process of zooming into various sample points in the scene to determine the best focus point. If someone has all the time then yes, it is perfectly ok but we are talking about capturing moments, sometimes they change quickly. In theory yes, EVF (good one) can be used effectively but in practice it has it's own set of limitations (as RF has, only in different areas). I guess they compliment each other that's why I like M + optional EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted December 21, 2016 Share #78 Posted December 21, 2016 I'm now at the point when I can't tell who is being serious and who is just winding the rest of us up! Too many people are making points that they surely don't actually believe... well, a couple anyway (Tired now... and I've a drive to make in the morning. I have found a Summilux 35 FLE and will be picking it up tomorrow, all being well ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted December 21, 2016 Share #79 Posted December 21, 2016 I'm now at the point when I can't tell who is being serious and who is just winding the rest of us up! Too many people are making points that they surely don't actually believe... well, a couple anyway (Tired now... and I've a drive to make in the morning. I have found a Summilux 35 FLE and will be picking it up tomorrow, all being well ) What is the emoticon for serious? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted December 21, 2016 Share #80 Posted December 21, 2016 When I say it is a challenge, I meant that you will have to evaluate the final image. Not a very fast process of zooming into various sample points in the scene to determine the best focus point. If someone has all the time then yes, it is perfectly ok but we are talking about capturing moments, sometimes they change quickly. In theory yes, EVF (good one) can be used effectively but in practice it has it's own set of limitations (as RF has, only in different areas). I guess they compliment each other that's why I like M + optional EVF. But if you are 'capturing moments' then you will really only have one main subject and to focus on that one main point is really fast. If you have several focus points to consider, by it's very definition, you are looking at a slower capture... When working fast, you make the choice of subject instantly. That's what you do in real life... If you have more time to view the scene in front of you, then you change your focus point as you look round the scene. I don't see photographing something is all that much different from looking at it in real time... Closer subjects naturally have a narrow depth of field... such as a face in the crowd, maybe in a riot or demonstration. What caught your eye, should be what should catch your eye when viewing the photo later. What is available in the frame after the capture is determined by the depth of field you have selected... which sometimes can benefit the final image, sometimes it distracts. On the other hand, if you are capturing an 'art' image or a landscape, you have far more time to choose the point of focus and select an appropriate aperture... I don't think either cause an EVF focus method a problem. But then maybe I'm weird Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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