David Dennis Posted July 26, 2016 Share #1 Posted July 26, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Amazon sells Leica cameras at their marketplace, including the popular Q. Sometimes the Q is sold at retail price. I normally see what looks like the name of a genuine Leica dealer selling it. Other times the Q is sold at an enormously inflated price, like $5-6k. (I'm sure everyone reading this knows retail is $4,250). I normally see the name of a dodgy sounding organization then. For example, right now the Q is for sale from a company called "Big Box Superstore". Big Box Superstore sells a Yuneec Q500 4K Typhoon quadcopter for $999, a Sharp bluetooth sound bar for $271.60, and a HP Envy computer for $750. Hardly the kind of inventory mix we would expect of a Leica dealer. The Leica SL is being sold by "6ave", for a price a few hundred dollars below list. Top selling products from 6ave include a Logitech ClearChat headset ($29.99), a LifeProof FRE iPhone 6 case ($45.29), etc. Somehow I doubt that "6ave" is a Leica authorized dealer. How do these dodgy-sounding dealers get these products? What are the consequences of buying from one of them? I believe the warranty is void, is it not? And in that case why would anyone patronize such a place? Getting a SL for $7,289.79 instead of $7,500 hardly seems worth a voided warranty and no customer service. And of course paying $500-$1,000+ for no warranty to get a Q today instead of a couple of weeks from now seems foolish to the extreme. Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 Hi David Dennis, Take a look here How do dodgy retailers get Leica cameras?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
kenf Posted July 26, 2016 Share #2 Posted July 26, 2016 I suspect they're buying them grey market and reselling them at a profit. Why would anyone buy from them? There's a sucker born every minute... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 26, 2016 Share #3 Posted July 26, 2016 Amazon sells Leica cameras at their marketplace, including the popular Q. Sometimes the Q is sold at retail price. I normally see what looks like the name of a genuine Leica dealer selling it. Other times the Q is sold at an enormously inflated price, like $5-6k. (I'm sure everyone reading this knows retail is $4,250). I normally see the name of a dodgy sounding organization then. For example, right now the Q is for sale from a company called "Big Box Superstore". Big Box Superstore sells a Yuneec Q500 4K Typhoon quadcopter for $999, a Sharp bluetooth sound bar for $271.60, and a HP Envy computer for $750. Hardly the kind of inventory mix we would expect of a Leica dealer. The Leica SL is being sold by "6ave", for a price a few hundred dollars below list. Top selling products from 6ave include a Logitech ClearChat headset ($29.99), a LifeProof FRE iPhone 6 case ($45.29), etc. Somehow I doubt that "6ave" is a Leica authorized dealer. How do these dodgy-sounding dealers get these products? What are the consequences of buying from one of them? I believe the warranty is void, is it not? And in that case why would anyone patronize such a place? Getting a SL for $7,289.79 instead of $7,500 hardly seems worth a voided warranty and no customer service. And of course paying $500-$1,000+ for no warranty to get a Q today instead of a couple of weeks from now seems foolish to the extreme. Thoughts? The Leica USA guaranty will be void on grey products, similarly for importers like Leica China. However, Leica Wetzlar will extend guaranty on all their products, irrespective of their provenance, so the buyer can always rely on factory guaranty, albeit with the hassle of sending it to Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted July 26, 2016 Share #4 Posted July 26, 2016 Not sure of this is true; last week a Leica friend told me that new SL Cameras are sold in Hongkong for 4k€! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dennis Posted July 26, 2016 Author Share #5 Posted July 26, 2016 Not sure of this is true; last week a Leica friend told me that new SL Cameras are sold in Hongkong for 4k€! John Interesting, because my "I would love a SL but really can't afford $12,000 for one" could change to "I'd really love to buy a SL, like now!" if that price was real and wouldn't result in outrageous import duties when I returned to the US. At least if the 24-90 lens price was proportional. Hmmm. The basic SL + 24-90 rig would be about $7,772 in that case instead of $12,000. I love the Leica Store Miami, but geez, that's a price difference I really can't ignore ... In the mean time, what I'm really curious about is why there is a grey market. That is, why doesn't Leica charge the same for their cameras no matter what country they are exported to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted July 26, 2016 Share #6 Posted July 26, 2016 Years ago, before Internet, the ads in the camera magazines had similar bargains. I bought my R4 knowing it was grey market, and never had a problem. There were no nearby Leica dealers then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2016 Share #7 Posted July 26, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...why doesn't Leica charge the same for their cameras no matter what country they are exported to? Perhaps some of the usual commercial conditions as - volume discounts, - different taxes and rates for foreign currencies, - lower prices in order to conquer new markets. Sure there are some more reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 26, 2016 Share #8 Posted July 26, 2016 Interesting, because my "I would love a SL but really can't afford $12,000 for one" could change to "I'd really love to buy a SL, like now!" if that price was real and wouldn't result in outrageous import duties when I returned to the US. At least if the 24-90 lens price was proportional. Hmmm. The basic SL + 24-90 rig would be about $7,772 in that case instead of $12,000. I love the Leica Store Miami, but geez, that's a price difference I really can't ignore ... In the mean time, what I'm really curious about is why there is a grey market. That is, why doesn't Leica charge the same for their cameras no matter what country they are exported to? Banning or punishing (eg no service or warranty) parallel (grey) imports and maintaining recommended retail prices (RRP or 'list') would, in many circumstances, be regarded as anti-competitive behaviour unless there are objective criteria to justify such behaviour such as consumer protection, efficiency of distribution, product safety, taxation etc. As the grey/RRP situation is so widespread around the world with so many different product types it can be concluded that it is relatively easy to justify such behaviour. The 'grey' system would appear to be designed more to protect traders than consumers, although the manufacturers will argue that having an authorised dealer network 'protects' consumers. Authorised dealers who sell both 'grey' and 'non grey' product make a hole in that argument, however. I am sure that many here will remember the area codes on DVDs. Some may not even remember DVDs which, box sets apart, now have a rapidly falling market which could not be protected by area code restrictions. When I lived in the Middle East, the guy in our local hypermarket took about 30 seconds to remove the coding restrictions from our DVD player which meant we could play DVDs from any part of the world. Leicas are, of course, a different kettle of fish in terms of cost, technology and tracking with serial numbers. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 27, 2016 Share #9 Posted July 27, 2016 If you buy a grey import you would have to return the camera/lens to Germany at your own cost for repair. Given the apparent number of returns people have make due to Leica 'quality control' I'd consider it a false economy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 27, 2016 Share #10 Posted July 27, 2016 What, exactly Grey (Gray) Market please? TIA! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemgb Posted July 27, 2016 Share #11 Posted July 27, 2016 Interesting, because my "I would love a SL but really can't afford $12,000 for one" could change to "I'd really love to buy a SL, like now!" if that price was real and wouldn't result in outrageous import duties when I returned to the US. At least if the 24-90 lens price was proportional. Hmmm. The basic SL + 24-90 rig would be about $7,772 in that case instead of $12,000. I love the Leica Store Miami, but geez, that's a price difference I really can't ignore ... In the mean time, what I'm really curious about is why there is a grey market. That is, why doesn't Leica charge the same for their cameras no matter what country they are exported to? Many years ago a friend living in Hong Kong bought a Canon A1 and multiple lenses for a friend living in the UK. He removed everything from their boxes, popped it all in a camera bag and walked right through customs....... Not advocating or condoning anything similar of course, just relaying a story...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 27, 2016 Share #12 Posted July 27, 2016 I am not sure if it applies to Leica Cameras, but, it is a somewhat safe bet that the retail price on many high-end products reflects a mark-up of about 30%. As Leica grows/expands, the existence of unsold inventory becomes a bigger problem for retailers, especially retailers not quite as skilled in estimating inventory needs as their more successful competition. If any of this is true for Leica- and their legitimate retailers- it is not so hard to believe that lower priced, new cameras could appear on the market. This is not a knock on China, just speculation: China represents a market where non-Chinese corporations can/are allowed to participate if the Chinese state determines there is some overriding benefit to the Chinese state, i.e. stability, profitability, etc.; this is the sole basis upon which the company is allowed to participate; if the benefit to the Chinese state does not accrue, the rules change, or the participant is invited to leave. It is not the same as entering a capitalist free-market economy where more standard rules and protections of a free market apply. It is somewhat like when a large corporation, e.g. Walmart, enters a large American city, e.g. Chicago: the ruling body, Chinese or Chicago governmental structure, plays a much more influential role in how they behave......Rules, policies, that are strictly enforced in other geographical regions may be more difficult to implement once they begin doing business in machine political environment.....Things they try to control- inventory reselling- become much more difficult to manage. Contract enforcement through legal channels is more difficult, expensive, and can frequently become a game of China/Chicago wins. But if the profit potential exists.......the market cannot be ignored. Whether this is bad, or good, is entirely a function of your own political beliefs. But, one thing is sure, unanticipated things are bound to happen more frequently.........Like cheap, gray market Leicas becoming more common. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted July 28, 2016 Share #13 Posted July 28, 2016 I am not sure if it applies to Leica Cameras, but, it is a somewhat safe bet that the retail price on many high-end products reflects a mark-up of about 30%... Years ago, I worked for a photography retailer - a professional caliber shop, not a big box retailer. The mark up on Nikon and Canon was nowhere near 30%; it was more along the lines of 1.5% to 2%. Some cameras were actually sold at cost in order to compete with mega retailers like B&H. Our shop did not stock Leica, so I cannot address the markup on Leica. Camera retailers do not make their money on cameras and lenses; it's the endless array of accessories - especially film, paper and chemistry back in the days of yore - that keeps the electricity on and the lease paid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted July 30, 2016 Share #14 Posted July 30, 2016 Not sure of this is true; last week a Leica friend told me that new SL Cameras are sold in Hongkong for 4k€! John Possibly ones that fell off the back of a truck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dennis Posted August 1, 2016 Author Share #15 Posted August 1, 2016 When I picked up my Q (which is awesome, by the way), I asked the good people of Leica Store Miami about the warranty question. Much to my surprise, they said that the policy on that was flexible and they would try to do the right thing. In other words, they would want to sustain their image as a quality Leica dealer and they would most likely want to work with the factory. So if the right thing was to honor the warranty by sending the camera to Wetzar on my behalf, they would most likely do so. So don't count the local support out even if you have a gray market product. Go there first, and if they are uncooperative, then you have a somewhat more difficult repair procedure. I hear occasional complaints about Leica service on this forum, so I should note that from what I understand they are no worse than Nikon service, which is notoriously sluggish and unresponsive. I am frankly afraid to send my 24-70 f/2.8 lens, with its horribly rough zoom action, to Nikon. I'm afraid I wouldn't see it for weeks. Maybe service is problematic with any company without a USA maintenance presence. Anytime you have to send something halfway around the world to fix it, problems are likely. Leica Store Miami now has a SL outfit (SL + 24-90 lens) for a touch under $10k used. I'm not going to get it, having just gotten the Q, but that definitely makes the SL a lot more interesting. I'm pretty confident I would love the SL, just not love paying for it . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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