S007 --> S008 timing

[LorenzoLandini]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I see several folks looking at the X1D and almost alluding at a quantum leap over the S. 

 

I am wondering whether such camera will actually be a "better" camera. Cameras are horses for courses and one may prefer one over the other one, EVF vs. optical VF, leaf shutter vs. flexibility of both leaf and plane shutters, etc..

 

However, while I don't disagree on the X1D being a very interesting camera bringing some fresh air, it has a sensor only marginally larger than the S (6.7%: 30x45 vs. 43.8x32.9mm), it has an IR filter that the S doesn't have it, and most likely the X1D has lenses that are arguably to some degree inferior to the S even though I haven't seen the MTF charts or test any of them to say this confidently (however the S lenses are arguably better than the Fujinon lenses of the H series, which costs more than the X1D lenses within the hasselblad range and if your get what you pay for...). There is a 13MP difference that may or may not be offset by the quality of the lens and the absence of an IR filter. Probably these 13MP will make some difference and the question is whether it is a big deal or not to justify jumping on the other boat. I personally doubt it but I could be wrong. 

 

What I am saying is that while Leica is somewhat under pressure by competitors, I am not totally convinced that competition actually did a quantum leap over the S. What I see is that the competition took note of what Leica did with the S (compact medium format built for digital from the ground up and that offer more flexibility than the traditional boxy medium format) and came up with a compelling product to compete in the same market niche of the S.  Horses for courses... 

[Jeff S]

 it has an IR filter that the S doesn't have it, 

The S has an IR filter over sensor....I think you mean AA (low pass) filter.

 

Jeff

[LorenzoLandini]

yes correct, my bad. 

[EoinC]

I am very sure I'm not confusing need and want. I have the immediate covered.

Fair enough, Paul. If you need it, you'd better go shopping. If you will need it, you can hold off and see what the options are.

[hoppyman]

hoppyman, on 13 Jul 2016 - 10:22, said:

Geoff probably after you have shot 20,000 frames, or maybe 33000 frames :)

hoppyman, on 13 Jul 2016 - 10:22, said:

I have shot 10,000 frames with my S (Typ 007) thus far. it does a superb job, who knows when any replacement might actually arrive?

 

Oh I hope not, 20,000 frames should be by Christmas! I'm sure that I shall be looking at and admiring any new model whenever it arrives too. But my S (Typ 007) will still be a very capable camera that works the same. Better to have one and use it than hesitate on buying something in case the next thing is just around the corner. Anyone want an S2 body?   I think that the SL would be a great backup and complement for stuff an S can't do aaand the S lens adapter is now released.

[xiaubauu2009]

I see several folks looking at the X1D and almost alluding at a quantum leap over the S. 

 

I am wondering whether such camera will actually be a "better" camera. Cameras are horses for courses and one may prefer one over the other one, EVF vs. optical VF, leaf shutter vs. flexibility of both leaf and plane shutters, etc..

 

However, while I don't disagree on the X1D being a very interesting camera bringing some fresh air, it has a sensor only marginally larger than the S (6.7%: 30x45 vs. 43.8x32.9mm), it has an IR filter that the S doesn't have it, and most likely the X1D has lenses that are arguably to some degree inferior to the S even though I haven't seen the MTF charts or test any of them to say this confidently (however the S lenses are arguably better than the Fujinon lenses of the H series, which costs more than the X1D lenses within the hasselblad range and if your get what you pay for...). There is a 13MP difference that may or may not be offset by the quality of the lens and the absence of an IR filter. Probably these 13MP will make some difference and the question is whether it is a big deal or not to justify jumping on the other boat. I personally doubt it but I could be wrong. 

 

What I am saying is that while Leica is somewhat under pressure by competitors, I am not totally convinced that competition actually did a quantum leap over the S. What I see is that the competition took note of what Leica did with the S (compact medium format built for digital from the ground up and that offer more flexibility than the traditional boxy medium format) and came up with a compelling product to compete in the same market niche of the S.  Horses for courses... 

 

 

The Sony Sensor in the X1D produced far superior files than the Leica S. The only thing that S has over the those 50 mega sensor is the Colour Profile in my experience, which, for some reason, I can't seem to achieve with other camera using the 50 Sony Sensor (Credo 50)... In terms of lens, I will say, it's on par and comparable. It's good, but it's not without peers. Leica M lens is far more 'special' than S because of its size and speed. 

 

Anyway, hope Leica will continue to perfect this system and not let it run into the ground like the R...

[LorenzoLandini]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The Sony Sensor in the X1D produced far superior files than the Leica S. The only thing that S has over the those 50 mega sensor is the Colour Profile in my experience, which, for some reason, I can't seem to achieve with other camera using the 50 Sony Sensor (Credo 50)... In terms of lens, I will say, it's on par and comparable. It's good, but it's not without peers. Leica M lens is far more 'special' than S because of its size and speed. 

 

Anyway, hope Leica will continue to perfect this system and not let it run into the ground like the R...

 

I don't disagree and I actually respect your hands-on experience that I don't have, particularly with respect to the sensor. On the lenses I still believe the S lenses are marginally superior to the Fujinon's, obviously it's a case by case assessment.  

 

More importantly though, I second your comment on hoping that Leica will continue developing the S system since it has been an investment for all of us, who often were also "investors" of the R system and being let down once is enough... that would make me jump off the boat with no return... 

[Jeff S]

It will be interesting to see what if anything Leica does with the S lens line.  The rumors of longer lenses and wider T/S lenses have long faded.  The QC issues reported here have also created angst among some. 

 

Moreover, with the new MF 'competition', starting with the Pentax 645z (seemingly prompting a dramatically reduced price point), the X1D, and possibly others to come, as well as Leica's attention on the successful (it seems) SL, the future of the S system is, for me, one of the most intriguing parts of Leica's direction.  Timing is but a piece of the equation.

 

Jeff

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

It will be interesting to see what if anything Leica does with the S lens line. The rumors of longer lenses and wider T/S lenses have long faded. The QC issues reported here have also created angst among some.

 

Moreover, with the new MF 'competition', starting with the Pentax 645z (seemingly prompting a dramatically reduced price point), the X1D, and possibly others to come, as well as Leica's attention on the successful (it seems) SL, the future of the S system is, for me, one of the most intriguing parts of Leica's direction. Timing is but a piece of the equation.

 

Jeff

Jeff

Anyone who already has the S system whether it be S006 or 007 they already have a fantastic camera system with amazing lenses....... So no need to worry about anything. Leica have already agreed to fix the lenses free of charge, so with my 3 lenses and S007 body I'm off and running:)

[Jeff S]

Jeff

Anyone who already has the S system whether it be S006 or 007 they already have a fantastic camera system with amazing lenses....... So no need to worry about anything. Leica have already agreed to fix the lenses free of charge, so with my 3 lenses and S007 body I'm off and running:)

A lot of folks said the same thing about the wonderful R system that they owned (myself included).

 

Anyway, that wasn't my point, which was focused on the potential next generation S (the topic of this thread) and longer term outlook.  I referenced the QC issues as a likely unexpected cost of doing business for Leica, not for you, as well as a potential deterrent to some potential customers (even if just service time or potential depreciation).

 

BTW, I owned the 006 and zoom for a brief period.....returned it.  These are tools for me, that either meet a particular set of objectives or not.  There are many choices....and I hope the S remains one.

 

Jeff

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

A lot of folks said the same thing about the wonderful R system that they owned (myself included).

 

Anyway, that wasn't my point, which was focused on the potential next generation S (the topic of this thread) and longer term outlook. I referenced the QC issues as a likely unexpected cost of doing business for Leica, not for you, as well as a potential deterrent to some potential customers (even if just service time or potential depreciation).

 

BTW, I owned the 006 and zoom for a brief period.....returned it. These are tools for me, that either meet a particular set of objectives or not. There are many choices....and I hope the S remains one.

 

Jeff

Jeff I know what you we're trying to say. I was just saying that for those of us that already have the S system it really doesn't matter if it all goes tits up with the S system and Leica concentrate on something else. We already have a great system.

 

Best Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff S]

Jeff I know what you we're trying to say. I was just saying that for those of us that already have the S system it really doesn't matter if it all goes tits up with the S system and Leica concentrate on something else. We already have a great system.

 

 

 

That's your take today.

 

Three weeks ago, you posted these....

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/261982-leica-s-trade-up/?p=3068983

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/261982-leica-s-trade-up/?p=3068526

 

Next month or two we'll see what mood you're in.  That's what keeps us interested.

 

Jeff

[hoppyman]

The Sony Sensor in the X1D produced far superior files than the Leica S. The only thing that S has over the those 50 mega sensor is the Colour Profile in my experience, which, for some reason, I can't seem to achieve with other camera using the 50 Sony Sensor (Credo 50)... In terms of lens, I will say, it's on par and comparable. It's good, but it's not without peers. Leica M lens is far more 'special' than S because of its size and speed. 

 

Anyway, hope Leica will continue to perfect this system and not let it run into the ground like the R...

Could you please explain how the files from the X1D were judged to be far superior? Certainly the resolution is higher.  Which lenses were used for this comparison?

 

The image quality of course is affected by the whole imaging chain including sensor, settings processing and lenses. I thought that I read that the two announced lenses for the X1D were from a Japanese supplier that I hadn't heard of previously. They are apparently much much cheaper than the mainstream medium format lenses. It will be very interesting to see how they perform as some systems get into the real world with a lot of use.

 

I think that that the SL system is the direct equivalent of the R system now though and much more current technology than the proposed R10 would have been. 

[RVB]

I don't disagree and I actually respect your hands-on experience that I don't have, particularly with respect to the sensor. On the lenses I still believe the S lenses are marginally superior to the Fujinon's, obviously it's a case by case assessment.  

 

More importantly though, I second your comment on hoping that Leica will continue developing the S system since it has been an investment for all of us, who often were also "investors" of the R system and being let down once is enough... that would make me jump off the boat with no return... 

 

"On the lenses I still believe the S lenses are marginally superior to the Fujinon's,"

 

I can't agree with that, I had most of the HC lenses and the S glass was fast better, the new X1D lenses and a slower and supposed to be "on par" with HC glass.

[xiaubauu2009]

Could you please explain how the files from the X1D were judged to be far superior? Certainly the resolution is higher. Which lenses were used for this comparison?

 

The image quality of course is affected by the whole imaging chain including sensor, settings processing and lenses. I thought that I read that the two announced lenses for the X1D were from a Japanese supplier that I hadn't heard of previously. They are apparently much much cheaper than the mainstream medium format lenses. It will be very interesting to see how they perform as some systems get into the real world with a lot of use.

 

I think that that the SL system is the direct equivalent of the R system now though and much more current technology than the proposed R10 would have been.

Sorry. I meant to say the Sony 50meg sensor of the X1D, which I have used on the credo 50 variant. Obviously it's stupid to refer to a system that has not been issued on the market yet. Taken away from this rodenstock or adaptor contax 645 lens, it is Better in terms of resolution and DR and overall flexibility of the file. However. The profile is not as nice. Or maybe my skill with the processor is not good enough (capture One).

[xiaubauu2009]

"On the lenses I still believe the S lenses are marginally superior to the Fujinon's,"

 

I can't agree with that, I had most of the HC lenses and the S glass was fast better, the new X1D lenses and a slower and supposed to be "on par" with HC glass.

I have used 2 HC lens on the S. A zoom and a 50. They seem to be on par in my experience. I swap it back to S due to the size. Zoom lens on the H is idiotic.

[RVB]

I have used 2 HC lens on the S. A zoom and a 50. They seem to be on par in my experience. I swap it back to S due to the size. Zoom lens on the H is idiotic.

 

When i had both systems I compared most of them and S lenses were better wide open and better color corrected, stopped down the differences were less.